Plane Replacement?

[ool]

Some Luftwaffe groups have Bf109G'2s. When I select change plane type I see only a limited selection of alternate plane types. Why doesn't the list allow all available planes in use by the Axis? If not at the beginning of the 8/43 campaign do all the other plane types in use become available on the replacement list at a later time?

Also I've read in some of these threads that FW109/5 should be immediately replaced with FW190/6. I know that in the original BTR the dramatic drop in performance above 20K wasn't built into the game. Looking at the weapons database I see the listed performance differences but can anyone tell me the improvements if any in regards to altitude limitations between the different FW=190 versions?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Rob Brennan UK]

I thought only the 190D was good at high altitude(of the 190 family bar the TA152), the rest are best used vs the bombers while any 109's try and distract the escorts imo.

If you change the G2's to a real german type ie the 190/6 then you can change again to all the good planes. IIRC the G2 is in use by the axis minors when the game starts, you will be able to change them to other types when your pools are big enough.

[Hard Sarge]

by our terms, the G-2 is a Trainer, LW units that use it, are School units, so they don't get the best of planes to use

later once certain levels are reached (believe date, or large number in stock, thought it was 500) then they can move up to standard fighters (and once they reach standard, then they can make any normal change)

the 190 A-5 is still the pure fighter, it is good as a fighter, the A-6 and beyound, were starting to be set up for anti bomber work, so while better vs a bomber, they are starting to get too heavy for good fighter vs fighter work (other then with the good pilots)

[ool]

So the D-520 is a trainer as well? It has a exceedingly short list of plane types to select from. Is it a case where morale and experience ot a certain date the list will expand for these squadrons?

[Hard Sarge]

yes, the D-520 is a trainer also, not every plane of this type is really a trainer type, but is how it is set up

date, or numbers in the stock pile, if you are not having to use a lot of replacements, you get a chance to pull from them, part of the idea is to keep the front line units in supply, it can be very easy to run out of front line aircraft

[Nikademus]

D-520's did a great job training your boys how to shoot straight. [:'(]

[ool]

Would rather they trained on 109's. I can't see the purpose of wasting factories on a D520, IAR etc. Too many models taking too many variant parts, engines etc. Russian model in WW2 may be crude but it was effective. Pick a model that works and crank it out in the thousand. Of course the fact that Stalin decided that the Soviet Union must have 100,000 pilots prior to WW2 was a major factor in the endless supply of pilots for all those thousands of aircraft they cranked out.

[Hard Sarge]

you are kidding right ?

have you even looked at what the Russians made during the war ? not to count what they flew that the US and England sent to them

also kind of odd, while the 520 was a trainer to the Germans, it was a front line model to others, the It's thought it was a pretty good plane, and the IAR 80/81 were very good planes, much better then most western people give it credit for (most losses to it, when they happened, were claimed to be 190s, when there were no 190s in the area)

the main reason for having factories making these planes, is kind of simple, there were making them, the Germans didn't have the luck, to be able to just shut them all down and change over to something better, like the player can

[Dobey455]

Also, bear in mind that historically the German designs were very advanced and required skilled technicians and modern factory equipment to produce.
Of all the German allies I believe only the Hungarians were able to produce 109's on there own production lines.
The other countries (ie Romania, Finland etc) either required finished planes shipped to them or, at best, could assemble the parts and airframes after they rolled off German production lines.

[ool]

No I'm not. If you had ever heard the German survivors of the Eastern front you would of learned that the Russians built excellent fighters from 43 on. Yak's were considered to be as good as the German fighters. Simple fact is after the initial slaughter of the Russian air force they did produce excellent fighters and pilots. P39's, P400's were good to expand the Russian air force faster. Simple fact though is they did produce quality contrary to western opinions. Just as any Luftwaffe pilot who flew against them.

[ool]

I agree with you to a point. Reprehensible and disgusting as it was the Germans were able to build V2 rockets using slave labour. So I think they would have a core of technicians train what they needed from there for the simpler tasks. Disgusting but if you can build V-2's that way I don't think 109's would be that much of a stretch.

[Nicholas Bell]

Well the beauty of the game is you can either play historically or experiment with "what if".  I agree that focusing on producing the fewest number of types is the best way to maximize production and reduce the ability of bombing to totally shut down production of a type.  The downside of this is that the models you really want to build are not available until later, and you have to balance current needs against future plans.  And there is something to be said for having a mix of aircraft with different strengths.  Add the fact that some of those factories (especially those critical engine factories) are huge and take months to convert.  Can you afford to have a plant not producing anything for 70 or 80 days?  One has to love this game for all the intricate choices one has to make.  Just too bad it takes so long to play out and see the results of those decisions.

(a useful "strategy" is to convert those large factories right after they have been bombed since they are going to be down anyway)

[ool]

I agree with you whole heartedly on that point. Thats why I leave the larger factories alone and convert the ones that are 1 or 2, rarely 3 in size. Its a quick conversion and the allied bombing goes for the bigger factories first owing to the cost benefit analysis especially in the first two weeks. I find that by building as many 190G's and Fw 190's as possible early you can have a signifigant surplus. This surplus then allows you to start systematically converting those factories to the newer types you want a couple of months in advance. I don't know if this version has the same chance for newer model advancement as the original BTR. Overall lets face it playing the German is a truly underdog role, which I relish. The overwhelming industrial and manpower might of the Allies will eventually crush you no matter what you do. So take a chance early, streamline, get a large surplus of certain planes. This will lessen the negative effects you referred to when the large 6, 7 size factories eventually get plugged.

[Rob Brennan UK]

Yes you can research in adavnce quite easily.

the formula is something like this:- 100 planes produced before its entry date will recuce that date by 1 month per month thats left untill production. ok thats not very well explained. heres a better example.

Plane type 6 months ahead needs 600 planes to reduce by 1 month, while a plane type 3 months ahead will need 300. As time goes on the costs reduce but trying to get a late 45 plane in 43 is imo impossible. Its best to go for 44 era planes 1st then if/when you get the chance try and go for later ones in 44.

There is a download in the war room for dates available (its in need of a couple of corrections) have a look in there.

and above all have fun.

[ool]

Thanks for your explanation. I usually have two maybe three factories ahead of time ready to produce what I want when the available date comes up. As the date approaches I start to retool all the smaller size one and two factories to the newer type. That leaves the larger ones producing the current types. If they get nailed the large surplus I get built up sees me through the conversion time to full production.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: ool

No I'm not. If you had ever heard the German survivors of the Eastern front you would of learned that the Russians built excellent fighters from 43 on. Yak's were considered to be as good as the German fighters. Simple fact is after the initial slaughter of the Russian air force they did produce excellent fighters and pilots. P39's, P400's were good to expand the Russian air force faster. Simple fact though is they did produce quality contrary to western opinions. Just as any Luftwaffe pilot who flew against them.

well, it seems like you know a little about Russian Aircraft, then you should understand my answer, the Russians didn't just build one or two planes and make many of them

your statement about the Yak is right, but, which model ? how many models and types did they make ? (have you ever seen how many yak 9 model/types there were ?)

but, back to the LW

it just wasn't that easy, the 109 was suppost to be phased out, the 190 was a great plane, but..., it's engine was no good above 20,000 feet, all of the work on the 190 C wasn't looking like it was going to be useful (in the end, it was, but not in the form it was intended)

so the 109 ended up needing to stay in production, while work on other models and types were made, trying to find a replacement for both, but, both needed to stay in production too

(remember, odd part about the Spitfire, as great as it was, the English were always trying to replace it, but the replacements were never as good, so it just keep on fighting)

by 43, the 109 was getting long in the tooth and should of been replaced, but they didn't have anything that was better, so it just kept getting longer and longer

at least the LW figured out (too late) that they needed to cut down on most of the worthless models being worked on (the 219 was aways being cut, then added, then cut again)

I tried to have Harley worked out a system for the AI to follow suit and drop the heavy production of the twins, once 44 rolls around, but it wasn't doable (so far at least)

Jabo's, you are going to have a lot of units coming in later in the war, that need these, you need to either have a large stockpile, or you need to keep them in production, or you will have a lot of empty units sitting around

[ool]

Yak models 1,7,9. Of the Yak 9 over 16K were built. The Mig 3 was the first Soviet fighter to fight on a equal footing with the 109F and G models.

I never said the 109 was out of my planning. It will be there till the bitter end. Other models simply don't cut it and are a waste of time and resources amid the myriad of parts, engines and models. Rough guess I narrowed the production to roughly a dozen models and convert as needed when newer improved variants come along. It sure leads to a host of surplus planes so when the factories get flattened the impact is minimized owing to the large surplus waiting to fill the void. It beats running out of planes. Something I never had happen in the old version of BTR. Doubt I will run out in this version either. Thats a big plus knowing that. Fuel is another matter![X(]

[Hard Sarge]

hmmm, and you leave out the best of the Yaks, the Yak 3 ?

there were 20 different models of the Yak 9

I would disagree with the Mig statement, the 109 E was as good or better, but it was the only SU plane of it's time that could fly and fight at high alt (it was a pure boom and zoom type plane, at a time, when everybody wanted to turn and burn, so never really got to use what it was good at)

as a player, you got a better chance of keeping your planes in stock, the AI will get burned out quick, most of what was done, was to try to keep the AI from over extending itself, the player will figured out how to work around it

plus to be honest, the "poor" plane production is there, so the player can make changes to what they want to build (I could of locked those types into production and taken the factories away)

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: ool

Yak models 1,7,9. Of the Yak 9 over 16K were built. The Mig 3 was the first Soviet fighter to fight on a equal footing with the 109F and G models.

MiG-3 was designed as a high altitude interceptor but ended up fighting much lower where it was not a good match for the Bf-109. Neither was the LaGG-3 which had poor maneuverability and acceleration. Early on, only the Yak-1 was considered to be a full match for the Bf-109F.

[wernerpruckner]

Ool,

look for the Black Cross, Red Star books!
you may get a good overview about the Soviet and German air actions on the Eastern Front with them.