To Coral Sea or Not??/?

[thantis]

Quick question for the group :

At the beginning of any of the long campaigns (except for Clash of Titans where this wouldn't apply), as the USN do you send Lexington & Yorktown to help out with the defense of Port Moresby/Gili Gili? Or do you sit back and just use LBA instead?

I made an attempt last night to reinforce Gili Gili right off the bat with my fast transports and got my *** handed to me on a plate when Zuikaku, Shokaku & Zuiho came roaring in - lost almost every ship I sent (including having my convoy to Port Moresby mauled severely as well).

I left Yorkie & Lady Lex in Noumea, but basically saw the rest of my surface forces go to the bottom off Gili Gili & shut the game down soon after.

What's your thoughts on the matter?

[U2]

Hi

Against a competent IJN player Port Moresby and Gili Gili will be taken anyway so what you loose in defending them would have been for nothing (unless you actually win which will be difficult early on). Try to buy time but thats it and how you do that is up to you.

Against the AI one should hold PM:) Not much of a challenge.

Dan

[Pawlock]

I had to learn the hard way in pbem, forget even trying to defend Gili Gili as USN. Against most humans it is just a sink hole as the only way you can supply it and protect transports is using your CV's. As the IJN outnumbers you here and has better quality pilots the outcomes more or less favour the IJN.

If you are gonna defend that area, concentrate solely on PM, get as much supply ther as you can early on as. All the resources wasted in trying to hold Gili Gili as well can now be devoted to this.

The differnce in extra supplies and troops can make holding out longer plus in the long run you are gonna make the IJN pay a highter price.

[Admiral_Arctic]

I move the CV to the east coast of Australia. Depending on the weather, I start them at Brisbane and slowly move up the coast. The Jap CV are going to move into the Coral Sea early on. They only have three zero groups on board. They have to have CAP going in case B17 and Hudsons get to launch an attack. If the Jap CV stay too long you might judge it timely to come out of Cairns or where ever you are based. If Jap CV have been used to attack Port Morseby they can have more fatigue. If there is no opportunity you can wait with little risk, and maybe when the bombardment TF start coming, the CV might expose themselves again. Jap player might not be expecting you. Just because you are there in Cairns and the Jap CV TF isn't far away you don't have to attack. If the Japs have only set Naval Attack mission, they won't have any fatigue so stay in base.

You will lose your CV if you just charge over to south of Gili Gili and the Japs are expecting you. I normally keep the Allied CV moving along the bottom of the map to Brisbane (they only go 10 hexes per day). I usually send the CV s straight away with little escort. The CA that start at Noumea I use to rush south of Guadalcanal and start to recon Lunga and surrounding areas. Repeat next day. Depending on discoveries, I usually split the TF and send all but one CA and DD to Brisbane (24 hexes per day). The next day I continue to fly off the recon Kingfishers. All this is to try and make the Japs think the whole initial TF (with CV and CA) are still near Guadalcanal. So if you can get your CV up to Cairns or (even Townsville) undetected you might be able to spring a trap. Especially if the Japs do use their CV to air bombard Port Morseby. You might get a true Midway if the Japs are on Airbase attack.

But just weigh your chances. You don't have to just rush off.

[thantis]

I hadn't thought about that - might be a good way to gain valuable experience & use the nuisance value of the LBA at Port Moresby to whittle down the escort a bit before moving up into position.

I'd rather not risk either carrier, especially if the Jap side is going to get all of the Midway carriers too. I've never held on to Gili Gili & it doesn't seem like a safe bet anyway, since Bettys & Nells out of Rabaul & Lae tend to make for a pretty rough trip for my convoys.

[angus]

Originally posted by Pawlock
I had to learn the hard way in pbem, forget even trying to defend Gili Gili as USN. Against most humans it is just a sink hole as the only way you can supply it and protect transports is using your CV's. As the IJN outnumbers you here and has better quality pilots the outcomes more or less favour the IJN.

If you are gonna defend that area, concentrate solely on PM, get as much supply ther as you can early on as. All the resources wasted in trying to hold Gili Gili as well can now be devoted to this.

The differnce in extra supplies and troops can make holding out longer plus in the long run you are gonna make the IJN pay a highter price.

What resources does the Allied player "waste" by trying to hold GG ?

I'd suggest that potential losses are minimal in the short to medium term. You might lose a couple of ships. It's not like you're short of transports as the Allies and what's the point of having ships if you don't mean to risk them ? I'd certainly sooner risk them trying to hold GG than fighting a carrier battle you're almost bound to lose. You might lose some infantry and engineers but if you do they'll reappear as reinforcements soon enough. You won't lose aircraft and you'll only lose a base unit if you send one to GG which would be a major mistake. The amount of supplies you will "lose" at PM is pretty small.

So the chances of holding GG are low but the downside of trying is minimal. The Japanese have a very small number of worthwhile ground combat units in the early period of the game. Unlike the Allied ones they cannot easily be rested and refitted so every battle that they have to fight makes them weaker for the next one. If the Japanese don't send the South Seas Force to GG they can't be sure to take it early. If they do send it you get to bomb it from PM and Australia and it'll be hit with quite nasty attrition. If you don't make an effort to defend GG the Japanese can take it with an SNLF detachment or a naval garrision leaving the South Seas Force to do something else.

As for supplying GG long-term that's a problem. But if I could hold it in the long term I'd be happy to be stuck with the problem of supplying it.

So the upside is pretty clear. It may delay an attack on PM, it forces the Japanese player to wear out a decent ground unit, it desn't significantly weaken the defence of PM, it keeps the IJN busy away from PM, the Japanese player will use a lot more shipping to take a defended GG than a defenceless one.

Of course if GG falls to the Japanese before you can get troops there this is pretty much academic.

Cheers,

Angus

P.S. Oleg, if you're reading this I'm only kidding. And if you think I'd apply the same logic to holding Buna or launching an early spoiling attack out of Wau you'd be quite wrong.

P.P.S. On the other hand maybe it's not such a bad idea.

P.P.P.S There is no post-post-postscript. Otherwise this could get silly.

[Pawlock]

Ok , I have 2 pbem's going atm and both have started out with the opposite philosophies ie - 1 tried to hold Gili Gili , the other throught circumstances forced on me does'nt.

The first where as I try to hold Gili against my opponents well founded tactics,it was bombed into submission as well as PM and invaded with little cost to him. In doing so I lost the best part of a Division ,eng's AA and so forth plus around 3 squadrons of fighters that couldent evacuate due to runway being US.

Now this is where you could be wrong , those units I lost are gone ,gone forever . You only recieve replacements IF the main unit still exists on the map . As for the planes , yes I'll get them back but in the meantime Im down 3 squadrons of fighters that could be used in Pm's defence.

Now my other game ,I lost Gili early , and was forced to concentrate on PM , as a result all supplies troops etc are now in this vicinity , meaning increased fortification , increased AA cover and more Front line troops. Without going into too much detail (as my oppenent may be reading ) I have plenty of Fresh fighters (which I can rotate out when fatigued as needed),and supplies , plus it is easier to keep supplied as I can protect my incoming convoys with LBA from PM without having (if I had any ) to commit my Cv's.

We all have our own ways I suppose, in hindsight me personally would not try to hold Gili again.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Originally posted by angus


P.S. Oleg, if you're reading this I'm only kidding. And if you think I'd apply the same logic to holding Buna or launching an early spoiling attack out of Wau you'd be quite wrong.

Man, it's like you've read pre-print copy of my book "Opening moves for Allies (for Dummies)" (South Seas Military Press, Lae, 2003.)

It's going to be tough battle... and I thought you're just a newbie in this game...

O.

[madflava13]

Angus -
I demand that each time you refer to "only losing a base force or some engineers", you must write out several thousand "We regret to inform you..." letters to the next of kin of the troops whose lives you've squandered... hehe.

To do otherwise would be to disrespect the lives of our electronic warriors...

[mogami]

Hi, Yeow, baseforces and engineers are more valuable then gold.
Bases are worthless without baseforce and they can not be built with out them or engineers. Combat engineers make a huge differance in the assault of fortified positions. Better to loose a brigade/regt of infantry (well at least it can be replaced)

[angus]

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, Yeow, baseforces and engineers are more valuable then gold.
Bases are worthless without baseforce and they can not be built with out them or engineers. Combat engineers make a huge differance in the assault of fortified positions. Better to loose a brigade/regt of infantry (well at least it can be replaced)

Erm, I said that losing a base force would be a bad idea.

Engineers ? That depends. The three EABs at the start of the game are about the most valuable land units the Allied player has IMO.

The US Army engineer units are a good deal less impressive. The battalions are too small to split up and produce two useful engineer units, but you can aways leave a small part of the battalion in Australia so that it will be rebuilt if you lose the bigger bit. The two engineer regiments are big enough to split into two useful halves giving two small engineer units to keep at secure(-ish) bases and two for mad schemes. I'd be perfectly happy to risk those units in desperate ventures along with bits of the (not very good anyway) 7th and 14th Australian brigades if a decent opportunity arose.

Yes, this is cynical and displaying contempt for the virtual lives of my virtual soldiers but it's not as if they can frag me and I won't get sacked. If they design wargames that deliver electric shocks to the player in line with his losses in men and equipment I think we'll see a big change in the way games are played

Cheers,

Angus

[Raverdave]

Always try to contest Jap ground forces.......you then force the Jap player to comitt troops that would otherwise be used else where....and as the allies....this is one area in which you have an advantage over the IJN player.....more troops.