War in the East Q&A

[Joel Billings]

FYI, as captured equipment they will breakdown more often and not get repaired as often as regular equipment.

[ComradeP]

Hard Sarge, based on your comments regarding the supply state of the unit using the Panthers, would it be correct to assume that the Panthers count as medium tanks TOE wise, so when units don't get Soviet medium tanks, they'll pick Panthers (or another German medium tank)?

You note that AA and artillery will get the most use, but the majority of the artillery in the capture screen is not being used by a Soviet unit.

Can captured equipment only be used by on-map units, or also by HQ/divisional/Corps attachments?

And a final question: does captured equipment always have to be used by standard units or will units specifically using captured equipment be formed, possibly only HQ attachment battalions?

As an aside, in a few weeks I think I'll create a summary thread with just the questions and answers to what has been questioned and answered, as a 35+ page Q&A thread might scare some people off.

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's going to be years before we see anything like a War in Europe from this game engine. I would think they'd have to produce a western front game separately first. And then do a complete overhaul of diplomatic and economic engines before putting the two together in one game, since neither of these really exist at present.

Simulating freeish production at this game scale is going to be a huge design challenge. The historical orders of battle impose a certain design discipline on the game but become increasingly implausible as you expand the scope of the game to cover the entire theater and strategic options multiply.

I don't particularly think that War in Europe succeeded in meeting that challenge, btw. My own view is that divisional level games don't work well here for this sort of thing, and you have to kick it up a notch or two (to corps level and up) to really get something that flows smoothly and is playable. That is, move it up to the World in Flames/A3rd Reich level. There's a sort of Heisenberg uncertainty principle at work here, the more micro the game is, the harder it is to model the macro issues.

That's why I always thought/dreamed that the old WIR combined with PacWar would make a great engine for a new War in Europe. Good map scale (WIR); corp sized shells to put divisions into; PacWar for the naval engine. It would need a 'prettier' map. I once took it upon me to make a new map w/the map editor to create western Europe/France and Battle of Order for a 1940 scenerio but failed miserably. It was a fun exersize nontheless!

I'm very anxious for WIE and will have much enjoyment, but greedily dream for the definitive War in Europe; operational level; 20 to 25 km/hex; div/corp level with great naval & air. [:'(]

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Hard Sarge, based on your comments regarding the supply state of the unit using the Panthers, would it be correct to assume that the Panthers count as medium tanks TOE wise, so when units don't get Soviet medium tanks, they'll pick Panthers (or another German medium tank)?

I "think" the unit in question was out of the main supply line of the SU system, and so, needed tanks and grabbed tanks it could find in the area, a number of Panzer Div's were trapped and taken out close to where it was, now, if that is "really" how it works or not, I do not really know, just how it feels

You note that AA and artillery will get the most use, but the majority of the artillery in the capture screen is not being used by a Soviet unit.

I would disagree, there is what 320+ units using some of the anti-air weapons, for the Arty, the SU used a different size shell, then did most of the western nations, so yes, while the Ge did use a lot of there guns, they also redid the breech systems, to be able to handle Ge ammo, but not everything will be used, or will need to be used, if you have lots of your own weapons, no needed to use somebodies else with issues acted to them

Can captured equipment only be used by on-map units, or also by HQ/divisional/Corps attachments?

And a final question: does captured equipment always have to be used by standard units or will units specifically using captured equipment be formed, possibly only HQ attachment battalions?

As an aside, in a few weeks I think I'll create a summary thread with just the questions and answers to what has been questioned and answered, as a 35+ page Q&A thread might scare some people off.

[lbadal99]

Hard Sarge, many thanks for the details on captured weapons - looks very well detailed in the game - I have a couple of questions on screenshots you provided:
 
The first screen shot showed all the various captured equipment - what do the columns indicate?  Pool, Captured, Units. 
 
I assume Pool is the number of pieces of captured equipment that can be used (i.e. "runners") - Captured I assume means total number of captured pieces (working / non-working) and Units mneans pieces of that equipment out to specific units.
 
Also what about trucks?  Can you capture trucks and reuse them in your own transport pool?
 
Thanks  

[lbadal99]

Hard Sarge another question in regards to airfield/air unit overrun - as either side moves on the offense and over runs air fields/air units what happens at the airfield sites - are planes able to take off and relocate and only the ground /support units destroyed/captured/scattered or do a % of planes get destroyed and captured? 
 
Real world example would be the Stalingrad airlift where the Russians actually overran the main air base at Tatsinskaya Airbase (where a number of Ju-52 transport planes were stationed for the airlift) by the Russian 24th Tank Corps.  The Russian Corps destroyed approximately 300 aircraft before being wiped out themselves , but a number of transports still got out and redeployed to other airfields farther west.
 
Is something like this modelled in the game when air units are overrun?
 
Thanks len

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: lbadal99


Also what about trucks?  Can you capture trucks and reuse them in your own transport pool?

No, captured equipment refers only to weapons.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: lbadal99

Hard Sarge another question in regards to airfield/air unit overrun - as either side moves on the offense and over runs air fields/air units what happens at the airfield sites - are planes able to take off and relocate and only the ground /support units destroyed/captured/scattered or do a % of planes get destroyed and captured? 

Real world example would be the Stalingrad airlift where the Russians actually overran the main air base at Tatsinskaya Airbase (where a number of Ju-52 transport planes were stationed for the airlift) by the Russian 24th Tank Corps.  The Russian Corps destroyed approximately 300 aircraft before being wiped out themselves , but a number of transports still got out and redeployed to other airfields farther west.

Is something like this modelled in the game when air units are overrun?

When an air base is displaced "overrun", all damaged planes are destroyed and the air base's ground elements suffer normal retreat attrition. Ready and reserve planes are assumed to have flown off and landed at the location the air base displaced to.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: lbadal99


Also what about trucks?  Can you capture trucks and reuse them in your own transport pool?

No, captured equipment refers only to weapons.

I read somewhere that LAH capture and bunch of GMC trucks during the conquest of France. They loved them for there durability and the interchangability of parts. Of course with no spares that fleet of trucks slow disappeared over time. No doubt scattered about the Russian steppes. LAH GMC's largest parts distributor!! LOL! Can't remember how many but they were trucks order by the French for the French Army and captured by LAH.

Oh yeah, that would be kind of hard to model in a game of this proportions. Interesting tid-bit.

[notenome]

The capture of trucks and most importantly supplies is something of an issue. Don't get me wrong, I already love everything thats in and honestly want the damn game to be released already, but the germans captured a treasure trove of supplies during Barbarossa. Whilst munitions are of limited use, the fuel was extremely important, as were the rations. And latter on every coat they could get there hands on was a luxury (but thats negligible at the this scale). I do think that trucks and fuel should be capturable, easy to model to, imho, simply have every HQ carry a certain amount, when they get captured, some supplies change hands. Lastly, and this is probably asking for too much, but Russian trains were also to become very important, for obvious reasons. But with the rail repair thats probably adequately abstracted.

[lbadal99]

Good point on Russian Trains - At Stalingrad 16th Panzer overan a goods train that was chalked full of Willy's jeeps and Studebaker Trucks - once they were relieved from their dash to Stalingrad - they happily took over the equipment.
 
Len

[karonagames]

I did not wish to contradict Jaw, but when I was trying to track down a discrepancy in the Axis truck pool in one of my test games, Joel did say that trucks are captured. The rules for what ratio are captured, sent to the truck pool and/or the repair pool have not been laid out in the manual, which is probably why Jaw thought that they were not captured. Trucks are also shown on a separate part of the TOE and don't get shown as "captured" equipment within the main TOE display.

Likewise fuel and supplies are captured when HQs are overrun, but substantial amounts are "damaged" to represent the fact that some of the fuel captured was diesel, and/or of a quality that the Germans couldn't use.

It looks like the manual has been updated recently - here are the current rules ( Subject to change etc.)

15.13 Captured Equipment
AFV, combat vehicles and guns (devices that are named gun, usually individual ground weapons of 20mm size or greater) from other types of ground elements (e.g. artillery) can be captured as a result of a unit being forced to retreat or conduct a displacement move. Units that shatter or surrender have a greater chance of having equipment captured along with the manpower in the ground element. Captured equipment is placed in the “captured” production pool and may be used to equip applicable ground elements when a sufficient quantity has been captured. In some cases during retreats and attacks that fail to force the defender to retreat, equipment may be considered abandoned without the manpower associated with the equipment being disabled. In those cases, the manpower is returned to the pool while the equipment is either captured or destroyed.
Captured equipment will not be used by any country until October 1941.

15.14 Captured Supplies and Fuel
The retreat or displacement move of any unit may result in the capture of supplies and/or fuel. The captured material will be added as damaged supply or fuel depots to the HQ unit to which the combat unit that caused the retreat or displacement move is attached. A text message will display in the map area whenever enemy material is captured.

So it does look like trucks are outside the definition of combat vehicles, so this will need to be clarified.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

15.13 Captured Equipment
AFV, combat vehicles and guns (devices that are named gun, usually individual ground weapons of 20mm size or greater) from other types of ground elements (e.g. artillery) can be captured as a result of a unit being forced to retreat or conduct a displacement move. Units that shatter or surrender have a greater chance of having equipment captured along with the manpower in the ground element. Captured equipment is placed in the “captured” production pool and may be used to equip applicable ground elements when a sufficient quantity has been captured. In some cases during retreats and attacks that fail to force the defender to retreat, equipment may be considered abandoned without the manpower associated with the equipment being disabled. In those cases, the manpower is returned to the pool while the equipment is either captured or destroyed.
Captured equipment will not be used by any country until October 1941.

So it does look like trucks are outside the definition of combat vehicles, so this will need to be clarified.

Yes, I was basing my answer on the above statement in the rules which specifically mentions AFVs and combat vehicles, which I'm assuming to be armed halftracks and trucks (e.g. GAZ-AAMG), but not unarmed trucks. I did a search of the latest rules manual looking for the phrase "captured trucks" and could find no references. I would never be one to suggest that Joel is wrong but I think I'll e-mail Gary for a definitive answer.

[Joel Billings]

I'm often wrong. [:)] IIRC, I thought we had something in the game that was capturing generic vehicles, however, IIRC the last time I checked with Gary he told me that he thought he had something that was capturing vehicles but couldn't find it in the code and we left it at that. My memory on this could also be wrong, so Jim should contact Gary about this. Ideally we'd have something in the game that allows some number of vehicles to be captured. While captured AFVs can specifically be given a much worse reliability rating to simulate the lack of spare parts, etc., generic vehicles are just that, generic. So to account for that we'd have to have less trucks captured as once in a player's motor pool they would be treated as if they were any vehicle. By the way, the Germans have a slower repair rate for their vehicles as they were notorious for having vehicles from many different sources, and thus a much harder time keeping them all running.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

...By the way, the Germans have a slower repair rate for their vehicles as they were notorious for having vehicles from many different sources, and thus a much harder time keeping them all running.

I'm assuming you are referring only to non-AFVs as the Germans were legendary for how fast they could repair damaged AFVs. If Gary has this working the way I think it should be, German AFVs should be more likely to breakdown than their Soviet counterparts (based on the reliability ratings given them in the data base) but the Germans should be more efficient at repairing their AFVs than the Soviets.

[Joel Billings]

I'm only talking about generic vehicle repair rates. By the way, we do plan on adding captured generic vehicles as I confirmed that we thought we had it but figured out we don't, so it's on the list to get into the game.

[randallw]

Doesn't captured fighting equipment also have a lower amount of ammo available for it, since the capturing country may not be producting ammo stocks of the exact size shells?  Is this adjustment made in the game?
 
Do computer controlled units move by the usual inside-game waypoint system? Capture location A, then B, then C, etc.
 
Will there be times when the computer is moving the subunits of a larger formation, with the larger units dead, into doom?  For example an Army size unit moving some arty regiment forward with no division to support......or will the subunits always be held at the HQ, so they really won't be running around on their lonesome?

[Joel Billings]

Support type units (battalions, some regiments) are always attached to either a HQ or to a German division or Soviet Corps. They do not move on their own.

The support units are only involved in battles if their is an on-map unit in a battle.

No, I don't think we account for ammo of captured items, but they due tend to breakdown more quickly when they're being used.

We have added captured generic vehicles to the game.

[jaw]

I would also add that at a game of this scale anything that takes you out of combat whether it be an ordinary mechanical breakdown, running low on ammo or throwing a track because the driver is unfamiliar with the vehicle counts as a breakdown. All of these factors contribute to the much higher breakdown probability that captured equipment has.

[wmcalpine]

Question for Jon,

In your latest AAR versus the Soviet AI, what game options and difficulty level are you using?

Bill