Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov

[Erik Rutins]

Here are the T-70's specs. Making a very "quick and dirty" comparison, at about 530 meters it has around a 30-40% chance of hitting us with an AP shot and it has a penetration of 4 at that range. Our own APHE shot has about a 70-80% chance of hitting at that range, with a penetration of 6. Our average front armor is about 6.5 (mostly 6s and 7s), theirs is about 5.5 (mix of 4s and 7s).

[Erik Rutins]

So, I'll wait for more input and do another turn or two this evening.

There's no contact in the woods, so I will keep moving up there until we make contact, unless advised otherwise.

The main question now is what to do with the Panzers? Bring up the rest of the platoon? A quick tactical withdrawal with the section that is being targeted or should they start exchanging fire, given the Panzer IIIL's superiority to the T-70 at this range? Something else?

Should I continue to keep the 3rd Platoon of Panzergrenadiers in reserve?

Here's an overview shot to help you plan.

[[hirr]Leto]

What are the potential % chances for gun damage hits and track immobilizations for the T-70's on the MK III's at that range? 5-2 is not a good set of odds, even if the larger force is inferior... I guess I'd like to know how the secondary damage system works.

Cheers!

Leto

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Leto,

Whenever a shot hits, the location is determined. In this case, it looks like the T-70s would be to our front, though slightly to the side. The specs for each vehicle have a number for each location. Top Deck and Top Turret are not accessible from this angle, so we're looking at locations 1-10 from the front.

Two of those are track locations, which on our Panzer IIILs have an armor value of 2. Five of those are Hull locations, with armor values 6, 6, 9u, 7s10, 7s10 (I explained these values in another thread). The last three are turret locations with armor values 7s10, 6/7s10 and 8s10.

The locations in general go from bottom to top, with 1 being the lowest track location and 10 being the highest turret location on the vehicle.

If we are hull down to the T-70s (I don't think we are, but if we back up a bit we might be) then the lower locations, including the tracks, could not be hit by their shots. Instead you'd see "ground hit deflected" if the shell would normally have hit those (and would hit the ground instead).

If they hit our tracks with a penetration of 4 vs. an armor of 2, there's still the variable penetration to consider and then they have to make their "D"estruction roll for their ammunition type (about a 30-40% chance for the T-70's 45mm AP), which means they are not guaranteed to cause damage to our tracks even with a hit. It takes two penetrating and damaging track hits to fully immobilize a vehicle, or one penetrating and damaging mobility hit (through the hull armor).

Hits on the turret can cause gun damage, so that's three out of ten locations, but again they would need to penetrate and damage. Any penetrating hit into the body of the tank has a number of critical damage types it can cause, up to and including destroying the vehicle in one shot, killing a crew member, damaging the gun, damaging the engine. The damage table is different based on where it penetrates, but any penetrating turret hit could cause gun damage.

Any hit, even if it doesn't penetrate, can also Stun the tank. The 45mm AP has a very small chance to Stun though.

Regards,

- Erik

[[hirr]Leto]

Which of the turret categories = the gun? I take it that the same principles would be applied to the damage or destruction of the gun?

Cheers!

Leto

[Erik Rutins]

Just edited my post above - any turret hit could potentially cause gun damage.

Also worth considering is that our ROF on our main gun is significantly higher than theirs. We can probably get 2-3 times as many shots off in the same time frame in ideal conditions.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

I should note that we currently do have flank shots on a lot of those T-70s. Their turrets just started turning towards us, but they have not yet turned their hulls. Their side hull armor is much weaker, but they could also turn their hulls at any time. Keep this in mind.

[[hirr]Leto]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just edited my post above - any turret hit could potentially cause gun damage.

Also worth considering is that our ROF on our main gun is significantly higher than theirs. We can probably get 2-3 times as many shots off in the same time frame in ideal conditions.

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks Eric,

I just read the Tank Data thread. What are the probabilities assigned to gun damage on any turret hit? I know that size and type of shell are probably important, but I would like to know exactly how this works (I am such a pain in the arse I know).

: )

Cheers1

Leto

[british exil]

ACHTUNG PANZER!!!
I would think the panzer leaders would shoot the "Ivan" before he could get a shot in. All enemy are in a perect position to be shot at, the Soviets are also heading towards the village= cover from the panzers and danger to advancing Pzr Grenadiere.
Plus the Soviets can manovere out to their right onto the ice and try to get into a better position.
The Panzer must shoot now or they lose the iniciative.

Mat

[Peterk1]

Start shooting. Hold position with the two panzers.
Rush the other Pz III's up to the same line and even up the odds. Let's gamble there aren't any ATGs hiding that held fire.
3rd platoon INF a little tighter against 2nd Platoon. Inf keep pushing forward.

Really fun idea with this Erik!

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: [hirr]Leto
I just read the Tank Data thread. What are the probabilities assigned to gun damage on any turret hit? I know that size and type of shell are probably important, but I would like to know exactly how this works (I am such a pain in the arse I know).

Hi Leto,

Basically, it has a chance to damage each location once it penetrates the armor and is inside the turret. The chance depends on its "D"estruction rating. For a turret hit from the front, that could be the main gun, the tank commander or outright destruction of the vehicle. Depending on the damage rolls, a penetrating hit could cause none or all of those results. I guess in the most basic sense that would mean that the Gun is 1/3 of the locations for a penetrating turret hit, but each penetrating hit has only about a 30% chance to damage the gun based on the 45mm AP stats and the 45mm AP has a fairly small chance of penetrating the turret.

The chance to damage the main gun per 45mm AP hit is therefore pretty small, though I haven't run the exact numbers as it gets pretty complex with the different possible hit locations for each hit and the variable penetration effects. That's what the game is there for, to do all those calculations. [;)]

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Ok, based on the advice so far, I will move up the rest of the Panzer Platoon. Meanwhile, the infantry will continue to move up, with 3rd Platoon as a close reserve. Next turn coming...

[Erik Rutins]

Here are the plots for Turn 4. I decided to target the two lead T-70s. The other Panzers are moving up with Engage->Move orders while the advanced section stopped moving and is using Engage-Target to fire APHE at those T-70s.

[Erik Rutins]

Here's a look at the first 40 seconds of action. We manage to score five hits. Three are deflected, but we manage to cause mobility damage on the first T-70 and get a track hit on the second. All the T-70s did turn towards us and engage and they are actually moving to close the range. The first two have buttoned up thanks to our hits.

[Erik Rutins]

Here's the view from the T-70s...

[Erik Rutins]

Here we are after a full 80 second turn. Two T-70s are effectively immobilized. The other three are trying to close the distance and returning fire sporadically as they move. So far no damage to our Panzers, however we haven't been lucky enough to destroy any T-70s as most of our hull hits seem to be bouncing off the stronger sloped armor. The full platoon is up now and we have no new contacts in the woods, so I will run one more turn with the same orders - to continue engaging the T-70s while the infantry keeps moving ahead in the woods.

[Erik Rutins]

That last was actually Turn 5. Here are the plots for Turn 6.

Note that Panzer Command has full relative spotting, which means that each unit only gets to see what it actually sees and this is computed through a combination of terrain map and 3D LOS "ray" calculations. LOS calculations were improved again for Ostfront, so they are faster and more accurate than in Kharkov or Winterstorm.

You can see here that the selected Panzer IIIL can only see three of the five T-70s. When you have no unit selected, you see all the enemy units that are spotted by any of your units (basically the union of all LOS results), whereas when you select a unit the game shows you only what the selected unit can actually see.

[Erik Rutins]

If we put ourselves in the turret of that Panzer IIIL, we can see that the slope blocks its LOS to the other two stationary T-70s.

[Erik Rutins]

With the full platoon firing, we score our first kill with a turret penetration. The T-70 does not explode, but it's no longer operational. We manage some hull penetrations too, but with no apparent effect.

We do take more return fire, though it is inaccurate, but one of the misses seems a bit "larger" than the others. Indeed, the shot came from beyond the T-70s and our tankers spot something else in the woods beyond the road... you can see it in the distance and on the minimap.

[Erik Rutins]

...and here's what just shot at us.