Here come the Rebels! (Canoe v. Q-Ball)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's a long game, and it's even a long time before auto-victory comes into play, so there's no "pretty soon now." Of course, Brad may accomplish things now that lay the groundwork for victory later, but we'll see.

I think for Brad to achieve auto-victory will require the conquest of India. How many IJA divisions will that take? The Allies currently have something like 5,000 AV present in India. They're not the best troops, but I would think a minium of ten IJA divisions will be necessary to have a decent shot at it. Furthermore, Brad will have to keep the full KB nearby or else he risks the Allied carriers disrupting his supply lines.

And if he keeps the KB present near India, the Allies will be in a position to move forward in the Pacific theater well before the end of the year.

Yes, I'm nervous about India, but we have a very, very long way to go.

Restraining myself . . .[:)]

Again, I think you'll enjoy reading his AAR some day.
The Moose
User avatar
John 3rd
Posts: 17790
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:03 pm
Location: La Salle, Colorado

RE: Why, eh?

Post by John 3rd »

Brad knows all this - in fact, he gave me some friendly advice and counsel when the idea first occurred to me to invade Hokkaido and the Kuriles in that WitP game. When he sees the western Aleutian bases growing in our game, he'll have to beef up his NoPac defenses considerably. I think I can use this to my advantage as the game wears on, either for decoy purposes or to actually invade NoPac.

So...is it HE that I should blame??!!


Image

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
User avatar
crsutton
Posts: 9590
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:56 pm
Location: Maryland

RE: Why, eh?

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



If the Allied player sets foot in the Kuriles, he gets a big, free Japanese troop activation for his trouble. Plus, I believe, early activation of kamis.

Sooner or later you are going to be faced with this eventuality no matter which route you are taking. It does not matter which way you approach. It does not really pay for the Japanese player to fool around with Kamikazes until a certain point in the war is reached. Activated or not. Besides, he does not have to move close enough to trigger these events. It is just the threat.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg
User avatar
Grfin Zeppelin
Posts: 1514
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Germany

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Grfin Zeppelin »

Ah landing in the Kuriles gives neither troops nor Kamikazes.Even if you land in Tokyo you wont get Kamikazes prior 1/44.

Image
User avatar
Canoerebel
Posts: 21099
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Contact:

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Canoerebel »

Landing in the Kuriles (or anywhere else in the Home Islands) does trigger immediate Japanese reinforcements. I learned this to my sorrow in my game vs. Miller.

It will also trigger availability of kamikazees beginning 01/01/44 since the Kuriles are close enough to one of the triggering bases (Tokyo).
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Ah landing in the Kuriles gives neither troops nor Kamikazes.Even if you land in Tokyo you wont get Kamikazes prior 1/44.

The troops you do get; it happened to CR in his last game. On the kamis you are correct, but 1/44 is very early and makes a lot of expansion routes expensive if the Japanese player wants to dedicate to a kami repsonse. In a Scenario 2 game he has the planes to waste.

During CR's last game I did an extreme experiment against the AI in my game, where I sent about ten USN CVs plus escorts into kami range of the HI in 1945. I got a 1000 plane attack and lost, I believe, eight carriers over three days. I didn't have BBs for AA, but even so I had hundreds and hundreds of Hellcats and Corsairs on CAP (60%) and I took a beating. Ahistorical? Yes, because AE allows the IJA to produce massive numbers of excess planes and pilots. But it's a factor to weigh in activating kamis with 2.5 years left in the game.

Miller never did resort to massed kami waves partly because CR didn't go near enough to them. The game ended before an assault on the HI could begin.

Final thought--I read lots of Japanese Scenario 2 players bewailing the huge HI hit the large, involuntary pilot pool imposes on the Japanese economy. Whether the player wants those bodies or not, he gets them. Kamis might be a way to "cull the herd" while still racking up VPs, and reduce the HI leakage.
The Moose
User avatar
Canoerebel
Posts: 21099
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Contact:

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Canoerebel »

If I can take and hold two or three or four good bases in the Kuriles and/or Sikhalin Island in '43 or early '44, I would jump at the chance despite the drawbacks of (1) triggering Japanese inantry reinforcements; (2) triggering kamikazees effective 1/1/44; (3) distance from good ship repair facilities; and (4) challenges in supplying and supporting my troops.

Surely everybody agrees that the primary Allied objective in AE is to close on Japan as soon as possible. Of course, the Japanese player may prepare his defenses sufficiently to thwart such a move, but many Japanese players neglect NoPac...primarily because many Allied players do. The Allied player should at least create the appearance of a threat, becaue that forces the Japanese player to shift troops and aircraft to NoPac or risk disaster.

"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



If the Allied player sets foot in the Kuriles, he gets a big, free Japanese troop activation for his trouble. Plus, I believe, early activation of kamis.

Sooner or later you are going to be faced with this eventuality no matter which route you are taking. It does not matter which way you approach. It does not really pay for the Japanese player to fool around with Kamikazes until a certain point in the war is reached. Activated or not. Besides, he does not have to move close enough to trigger these events. It is just the threat.

True on the route, but the northern route has seasonal limits not present elsewhere, plus some geographical funneling which makes sub ops easier for the defender. I also realize that kamis are inevitable, but perhaps a historical activation in summer of 1944 via the Marianas is more prudent than asking for them on New Years' Day. It depends on a lot of factors; I'm simply suggesting they are a factor.

The Aleutians/Kuriles are a threat, IMO, only when strat bombing becomes feasible for the Allies in terms of airframes and relevant models. And that's not 1942, or even 1943 really. There is NO way a successful land invasion of the HI is going to be launched from the Kuriles/Aleutians in that period, if ever, considering free Japanese reenforcements, small base sizes with limited load speeds, seasonal issues, difficulty with overlapping LBA by the Allies and easy overlapping by the defender, and distance to Allies' main logistics and repair. The Japanese can rail reenforcements to any point in the northern HI faster than the Allies player can unload across the beach, unless the Allied player has total air supremacy, as was contemplated in Olympic and Coronet. In 1942-44 the Allied player won't have that in that northern theater, even theoretically. A land invasion simply isn't a credible threat. It's a side-show, but if the Japanese player doesn't come out it's a waste of resources IMO. Miller came out, and lost a lot of ships, especially BBs. I don't think Q would do the same.
The Moose
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If I can take and hold two or three or four good bases in the Kuriles and/or Sikhalin Island in '43 or early '44, I would jump at the chance despite the drawbacks of (1) triggering Japanese inantry reinforcements; (2) triggering kamikazees effective 1/1/44; (3) distance from good ship repair facilities; and (4) challenges in supplying and supporting my troops.

Surely everybody agrees that the primary Allied objective in AE is to close on Japan as soon as possible. Of course, the Japanese player may prepare his defenses sufficiently to thwart such a move, but many Japanese players neglect NoPac...primarily because many Allied players do. The Allied player should at least create the appearance of a threat, becaue that forces the Japanese player to shift troops and aircraft to NoPac or risk disaster.


Late 1943 or 1944 is a different proposition than trying a move now in hopes of drawing him away from India, which I thought was the topic. By all means garrison Attu and Kiska, but jumping at Para. Jima in 1942 seems like an op with no objective to me.

And call me odd, but I don't think that the Allies' objective is to close on Japan as soon as possible. The core objective in 1942 and 1943 is to attrit/cripple the Japanese economy, to pull down armament and vehicle point banks, to prevent HI bank growth, and to opportunistically sink whatever portions of the IJN that can be sunk on the way to sinking the merchant marine. Concurrent with that, hauling millions of tons of logistics forward, as well as troops, training/filling-out/upgrading TOE of same, and getting the 1944 hammer ready.

I would say that attritting the Japanese air effort was also key--as it was in RL--but like you I've come to understand that the game doesn't really allow that in Scenario 2. So, just staying out of the way of Allied air losses until the P-47/Hellcat era is a secondary objective.

Psychological factors like threats are fine, and work with some players (nations), but I think they must be credible, and the player open to worry. I'm not sure, in this game, that threats, fake-outs, diversionary attacks, etc. are going to be as useful as they have been against other players. Just my impression. I've never played PBEM, so the psych portion of the game is foreign to me.
The Moose
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

A side-note note for the peanut gallery, which I assume CR already knows from e-mail, but his opponent reports that he has extended job responsibilities this week which also involve after-hours socializing, so turns may be few or slow to appear.
The Moose
User avatar
Canoerebel
Posts: 21099
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Contact:

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Canoerebel »

I've never considered moving on the Kuriles in '42 or early '43. I've only mentioned using a buildup in the Aleutians as a "threat" to Japan as the game wears on. But I certainly think a move in '43 is possibe and would be productive if the Japanese player was sufficiently negligent. And I would definately prefer to close on the Home Islands in '43 instead of '44 or '45 if I could do so, but I don't think Brad is going to permit me to do so. But if I were playing a relatively inexperienced player who didn't properly attend to his defenses, I'd orchestrate a massive invasion of the Kuriles and Sikhalin Island in early October of '43, enjoy the reprieve over the ensuing winter months, and hit Hokkaido with B-24s in late '43, and Honshu with B-29s in mid '44.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
erstad
Posts: 1957
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:40 pm
Location: Midwest USA

RE: Why, eh?

Post by erstad »

Kamis might be a way to "cull the herd" while still racking up VPs, and reduce the HI leakage.

Won't affect HI, unless you drain the pool and eat into the trainees. HI cost is based on pilots in training, not in the pools. 90% certain.
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: erstad
Kamis might be a way to "cull the herd" while still racking up VPs, and reduce the HI leakage.

Won't affect HI, unless you drain the pool and eat into the trainees. HI cost is based on pilots in training, not in the pools. 90% certain.

Well, I got a 1000 plane raid flung against me. That would go a ways to draining the pool. I think the logic of even trying to save HI by killing pilots would depend on the armament and vehicle account totals, and shipyard plans. But it might be an interesting tactic. Lots of pretty good kami pilots in pretty good planes could knock the fixed-size USN aircraft replacement pool out of whack for months.
The Moose
User avatar
Grfin Zeppelin
Posts: 1514
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Germany

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Grfin Zeppelin »

Very strange. While playing Japan I was faced with a Kurile invasion and the allies captured a base.However I didnt get any reinforcments [:(]

Image
erstad
Posts: 1957
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:40 pm
Location: Midwest USA

RE: Why, eh?

Post by erstad »

I think the logic of even trying to save HI by killing pilots

But even if you want to do that, you don't need to kill the pilots. Just pull them out of training school into a group. Or if you want to get more out, pull from training school to a group to general reserve.

Not saying you can't kill the pilots, just that's not necessary.
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: erstad
I think the logic of even trying to save HI by killing pilots

But even if you want to do that, you don't need to kill the pilots. Just pull them out of training school into a group. Or if you want to get more out, pull from training school to a group to general reserve.

Not saying you can't kill the pilots, just that's not necessary.
I've never played the Japanese side, so maybe I don't get what you're suggesting. Wouldn't the normal replacement pool, plus general reserve, plus TRACOM, need to be empty before the game will allow you to pull from the school pipeline? Are Japanese replacement pools normally that low by 1945? I've never gotten the Allies' replacemnt pools under several thousand pilots. There aren't enough groups, let alone planes, to stick them out into the fleet and then require partly-trained men to step up.

Side note: we are REALLY in need to a turn from the players here. Talking about mass suicides to game the economy is about the last refuge of the bored.[:)]
The Moose
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Very strange. While playing Japan I was faced with a Kurile invasion and the allies captured a base.However I didnt get any reinforcments [:(]

I'd have to search the manual. Is there a date range where you get them and not other times? You could search the old AAR between CR and Miller. I think the details of the reenforcements' names and activation locations were discussed there. I think they arrived pretty well equipped, and right away.
The Moose
User avatar
Canoerebel
Posts: 21099
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Contact:

RE: Why, eh?

Post by Canoerebel »

The Allies invaded Paramushiro Jima and Onnekotan Jima on March 1, 1943. Miller immediately received a handful of units that were, I believe, called "garrison regiments." They were pretty strong, enabling him to put together a counterstrike much more quickly than if he had been forced to pull units out of farflung locales like the DEI. Note, however, that these units appeared in the Home Islands proper, not in the bases invaded.

By the way, Bullwinkle is correct about Q-Ball's unavailability this week - real work has called him so that we've done no more than one turn a day.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
User avatar
Canoerebel
Posts: 21099
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Contact:

On such small things....

Post by Canoerebel »

4/1/42 to 4/4/42

Allied Reinforcements: After remaining in place 9 or 10 hexes from Karachi for about two weeks, the KB suddenly moved south to a point just west of Bombay. This is huge, because the first of three big reinforcement convoys leaves the "Aden channel" tomorrow. This convoy carries mainly engineers. The second convoy, this one carrying most of the UK division, comes in two days. The third, carrying the balance of the division arrives in three days. Had the KB remained near Karachi, I probably would have recalled the convoy rather than risk (1) losing a bunch of ships, and (2) alerting Brad that I was so anxious to get troops into port that I was willing to take such a chance. On such small things can the fate of nations hinge....
KB: The KB might reverse course and ruin my day, but I have a hunch it has moved south either to cover a new amphibious assault or because Brad is getting antsy (or low on fuel) about keeping his carriers posted at such an extreme location.

India: Mainly quiet the past few days. One-third of 6th Guards Division moved inland one hex, but found an Indian brigade posted there. Brad hasn't tried an assault yet. Bangalore and Goa now have Indian divisions; Surat is strongly garrisoned by 650 AV; Ahmadenabad, the key base between Surat and Karachi, has 350 AV; but Bombay, with just 270 AV, is vulnerable at the moment. The Japanese have taken Cox's Bazaar with my units retreating not toward Chittagong, but rather toward Akyab. :(

Sub Wars: Spearfish got an xAK near Fusan. I-165 got an xAKL near Diego Garcia. Canadian corvettes battled I-6 west of San Francisco. The Allies scored lots of hits with duds the past week or so.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
erstad
Posts: 1957
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:40 pm
Location: Midwest USA

RE: Why, eh?

Post by erstad »

Wouldn't the normal replacement pool, plus general reserve, plus TRACOM, need to be empty before the game will allow you to pull from the school pipeline?

No. If you select "Replacement" as the pilot option, the get next pilot will pull from the general pilot replacement pool only. If that's empty, it starts pulling from the guys in school.
Post Reply

Return to “After Action Reports”