japans going to loose the war anyway. well anyway .. unless an extremely bold Bushido warrior leads japan through epic victory over the US.. i say you have to do it, its your fate, your fate is to loose, fearing your fate will mean hiding in its shadow, and succumbing to it, rising to meet your fate will let you stare it down into the shadows and reign supreme over the Pacific.. BANZI!!!
(also 8 hexes is right dont try a 9 hex strike wont work)
(also i dont think he was trying to have an actual carrier battle with you, i think he thought your carriers would be weak retiring or possible at dock and just wanted a cheap shot at some of your ships, he'll most likely withdraw now, are you just going to let him take his cheap shot if you do its his victory)
BACK IN BUSINESS - PzB goes East again(st) Andy Mac
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
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krupp_88mm
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Blackhorse
- Posts: 1415
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- Location: Eastern US
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
I, for one, think you should go "all in" and attack . . .
but that's because we spectators enjoy watching the results of Carrier duels
On a completely different topic . . . earlier you noted odd land combat results in Burma, where small Chinese forces were holding off similarly-sized Japanese units. The combat results in both cases indicated that either the Japanese had a Leader(-) adjustment, or the Chinese had a leader(+) (!?!). There is FOW built into that reporting, but have you been monitoring your LCU leaders?
but that's because we spectators enjoy watching the results of Carrier duels
On a completely different topic . . . earlier you noted odd land combat results in Burma, where small Chinese forces were holding off similarly-sized Japanese units. The combat results in both cases indicated that either the Japanese had a Leader(-) adjustment, or the Chinese had a leader(+) (!?!). There is FOW built into that reporting, but have you been monitoring your LCU leaders?
WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
I'd withdraw in this situation. The cost of defeat is far greater than benefits of victory, KB is too far from its own bases and is not in the top shape, Allies are better prepared for battle, hardly took enough damage on the previous day and might outnumber you. Remember, that in AE carriers will not necessarily launch full-sized strikes against minor targets.
The Reluctant Admiral mod team.
Take a look at the latest released version of the Reluctant Admiral mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/
Take a look at the latest released version of the Reluctant Admiral mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
correct me if I'm wrong but in the old Witp in a CV clash the Allies would always launch first (at least I've never seen the IJN launch a CV strike first)... but in AE it seems either party can attack first?
That said, I would suggest not fighting this one. The Allies seem to have quite a few tactical advantages and with the KB in one TF if the Allied strike launches first, they could cripple the KB response... my 0.02.
That said, I would suggest not fighting this one. The Allies seem to have quite a few tactical advantages and with the KB in one TF if the Allied strike launches first, they could cripple the KB response... my 0.02.
'Well, Comrade Boldin, this is the third time you've gotten yourself encircled by the Germans. Don't you think that's a bit much?' - Zhukov, late 1941
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
ORIGINAL: Reedster
correct me if I'm wrong but in the old Witp in a CV clash the Allies would always launch first (at least I've never seen the IJN launch a CV strike first)... but in AE it seems either party can attack first?
All strikes that occur in the same air phase (Night, AM, PM) are simultaneous. So you only have an advantage that way if, say, your planes launch in the AM but you opponents don't.
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
Hmmh, very tough call. I would expect 4 CV + 1 british, although the strikes and constitution of his force point rather to 3+1.
The question whether to risk a clash would for me come down to the question: Will there ever be more favorable terms?
- LBA support, yes, at an invasion. but so far, from what I have seen in other AARs, I get the feeling that this rarely makes a big difference (esp. later for the Japanese, with poor airframes against Hellcats, and a superiority of USN 10 CV + CVL facing KB plus a few LBA squadrons...).
- CV superiority, likely never.
- air frame and pilot experience advantage: presently probably even with slight preference for the Japanese, but very soon the US aircraft will have the edge even if KB stays entirely unscratched
- Naval gun superiority: Will not matter if the US can later on draw on TF's of 6-10 CV, plus CVL and CVE. Even if they loose a CV battle, there would be enough CVx left to render BB attacks desperate.
And, how will a favorable victory change the situation now, as opposed to a victory say in 6 or 12 months, which sounds like a reasonable time until rare situations with better chances may occur?
- obviously, a stunning victory early in the game, killing another 2-3 USN CVs at little to no loss would give you CV superiority into 1944, and would make a strategic difference.
- a draw now, would be a long-term allied bonus, and not change the present situation a lot, but cut your initiative by a few months shorter. Problems like the evacuation of OZ would have be addressed a couple of weeks earlier than the bulk of USN CV reinforcements arrive (do you know the schedule?)
- a loss now would end you offensive campaigns except for raiding convoys, or actions in the Indian ocean. You'd be on the defense 6 months prior to the situation with intact KB.
- however, a stunning victory in 9 months from now, say stunning with 4 allied CV lost for 2 Jap CV, wouldn't make much of difference to the allied player ("too little, too late"). The US would replace the 4 carriers in less than 6 months, and could probably even without them continue offensive actions, while the KB would need to repair and could not replace the hulks. Such a victory, while the US machine is on the roll, is but a speed-bump. You could not even follow up your success and ripe some fruits by hunting down the cripples, the BB/CA/CL, and AO TFs after the battle since the USN would still have more CVL and CVE active than your wounded KB could chew (like Lee, who one many tactic victories, which were essentially strategic losses since he never could follow up the success against McClellan, Hooker, or Grant).
My tendency is to risk combat, even though the situation is less than optimal and bears a high risk. However, I doubt that such a situation is coming back, not even to think of a better one. Andy is a careful, but not cautions player. He will wait until late 1943, when he has enough CV on his hands, before directly targeting KB, so that he can afford an exchange ratio of 1:2 and continue rolling.
Likely Andy is going to retreat fast now anyway, maybe leaving the slow old BBs behind to lurk you forward, hope you get bogged down with these, and then hit KB from the back-hand. Although my first though was "engineering" a 7-8 hex strike on his BB while his CV will flee much faster, this now seems like a trap to me. Either you strike fast and hard at his CV (maybe at maximal range to reduce the bombload and efficiency of his counterstrikes), or run for it...
The question whether to risk a clash would for me come down to the question: Will there ever be more favorable terms?
- LBA support, yes, at an invasion. but so far, from what I have seen in other AARs, I get the feeling that this rarely makes a big difference (esp. later for the Japanese, with poor airframes against Hellcats, and a superiority of USN 10 CV + CVL facing KB plus a few LBA squadrons...).
- CV superiority, likely never.
- air frame and pilot experience advantage: presently probably even with slight preference for the Japanese, but very soon the US aircraft will have the edge even if KB stays entirely unscratched
- Naval gun superiority: Will not matter if the US can later on draw on TF's of 6-10 CV, plus CVL and CVE. Even if they loose a CV battle, there would be enough CVx left to render BB attacks desperate.
And, how will a favorable victory change the situation now, as opposed to a victory say in 6 or 12 months, which sounds like a reasonable time until rare situations with better chances may occur?
- obviously, a stunning victory early in the game, killing another 2-3 USN CVs at little to no loss would give you CV superiority into 1944, and would make a strategic difference.
- a draw now, would be a long-term allied bonus, and not change the present situation a lot, but cut your initiative by a few months shorter. Problems like the evacuation of OZ would have be addressed a couple of weeks earlier than the bulk of USN CV reinforcements arrive (do you know the schedule?)
- a loss now would end you offensive campaigns except for raiding convoys, or actions in the Indian ocean. You'd be on the defense 6 months prior to the situation with intact KB.
- however, a stunning victory in 9 months from now, say stunning with 4 allied CV lost for 2 Jap CV, wouldn't make much of difference to the allied player ("too little, too late"). The US would replace the 4 carriers in less than 6 months, and could probably even without them continue offensive actions, while the KB would need to repair and could not replace the hulks. Such a victory, while the US machine is on the roll, is but a speed-bump. You could not even follow up your success and ripe some fruits by hunting down the cripples, the BB/CA/CL, and AO TFs after the battle since the USN would still have more CVL and CVE active than your wounded KB could chew (like Lee, who one many tactic victories, which were essentially strategic losses since he never could follow up the success against McClellan, Hooker, or Grant).
My tendency is to risk combat, even though the situation is less than optimal and bears a high risk. However, I doubt that such a situation is coming back, not even to think of a better one. Andy is a careful, but not cautions player. He will wait until late 1943, when he has enough CV on his hands, before directly targeting KB, so that he can afford an exchange ratio of 1:2 and continue rolling.
Likely Andy is going to retreat fast now anyway, maybe leaving the slow old BBs behind to lurk you forward, hope you get bogged down with these, and then hit KB from the back-hand. Although my first though was "engineering" a 7-8 hex strike on his BB while his CV will flee much faster, this now seems like a trap to me. Either you strike fast and hard at his CV (maybe at maximal range to reduce the bombload and efficiency of his counterstrikes), or run for it...
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
Sooner, or later there HAVE to be Carrier Battle. US have still non-working torpedoes, KB is full on AA ammo, and have most strikes, and fuel, so slight advantage is still here.
It looks like Midway, but this time Japan is on defending side, and have small superiority.
Are there any patrol planes at Nuku Hiva?
Allies are currently at declining aircraft, and pilot number, after Burma beating, so even more loses in that area could give great advantage.
Japan can park damaged ships at Nuku Hiva, Allies nearest port is.. Hawaii?
So, even lost it won't be large disaster for Japan, and stakes are still for KB now. How far is map edge? If KB can catch some BBs it is worth a risk, if there will be only CV battle it is kinda risky, but still, there could be no better opportunity. Corsairs arrive soon.
Where is nearest base to refill KB air strikes?
I bet there are some CVEs in there.
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Grfin Zeppelin
- Posts: 1514
- Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:22 pm
- Location: Germany
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
I would preserve my carrier strenght here.IF you win, thats nice but thats always nice but if you lose he will run amok in 43.You are in the middle of nowhere and even a moderatly damaged carrier will be in grave danger.
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: Reedster
correct me if I'm wrong but in the old Witp in a CV clash the Allies would always launch first (at least I've never seen the IJN launch a CV strike first)... but in AE it seems either party can attack first?
All strikes that occur in the same air phase (Night, AM, PM) are simultaneous. So you only have an advantage that way if, say, your planes launch in the AM but you opponents don't.
got it, thanks [:)]
'Well, Comrade Boldin, this is the third time you've gotten yourself encircled by the Germans. Don't you think that's a bit much?' - Zhukov, late 1941
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
Personally I wouldn't attack now. Andy can be relied upon to make minor errors which allow you to get at him more cheaply than a 50/50 carrier battle like this. He's also cautious so a fleet in being really impacts on his thinking and slows him down.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
ATTACK
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
I also vote no. The tactical situation is not optimal and CV battles in weather can be very lopsided. While it is true that a win for Japan later is still swamped by the steamroller, I believe that those arguing for engagement are placing too little value on the fleet in being impact of KB on the initiative and strategic options lost if Japan loses the CVs this early.
PS - My analysis assumes you believe Japan is doomed to defeat and victory is defined as doing better than the historical result. However, even if you reject this premise, military victory by Japan requires a long series of one-sided naval battles such that you prevent the enemy from obtaining clear CV superiority until much later in the game than actually occurred. By that criteria, you cannot afford many draws, and I believe a draw is the best you are likely to get out of this.
Either way, BANZAI!
PS - My analysis assumes you believe Japan is doomed to defeat and victory is defined as doing better than the historical result. However, even if you reject this premise, military victory by Japan requires a long series of one-sided naval battles such that you prevent the enemy from obtaining clear CV superiority until much later in the game than actually occurred. By that criteria, you cannot afford many draws, and I believe a draw is the best you are likely to get out of this.
Either way, BANZAI!
RE: DISASTER IN BURMA!
Appreciate the input! Lots of sensible advice.
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"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower
RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
Whooops. I checked manual. Section 6.4.2.1. Torpedoes have DUD reduction starting from... January 1943. Japan have exactly 20 days to use that advantage.
In that case... ATTACK!
Also, according to manual(s) TF should contain less, than 16 ships, to fight efficiently. KB is too large. When you split it, check for statistics of Commodore, it could be advantageous to get best manually, by choosing flagship.
In that case... ATTACK!
Also, according to manual(s) TF should contain less, than 16 ships, to fight efficiently. KB is too large. When you split it, check for statistics of Commodore, it could be advantageous to get best manually, by choosing flagship.
RE: RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
On the Akagi the "Z" Flag is hoisted on the halyard and a unison "BANZAI" can be heard from all the ships in the fleet!
The Imperial Fleet will not run from combat; this is the opportunity we have for a decisive battle!
The only way Andy can win back the Marquesas is to stand and fight!
- Only one side will remain on the battle field; come glorious death or victory.
Our ships are ready;
We have more aircraft, we have better pilots and better leaders!
Last turn we got a full detection / spotting of the enemy fleet; the KB isn't spotted and Andy doesn't know what to expect.
There is a good chance this can be decisive.
I have filled out the capacity of the 6 KB carriers to they do indeed hold 450 operational ac and another 50 ac will support us from Nuku Hiva.
Andy has seen that his bombers can't hit the kitchen sink and will be afraid to engage.
So maybe there won't even be a battle; this together with weather and range will dedice whether there will be a battle tomorrow.
"Admiral Heiachiro Togo hoisted the Z flag aboard his flagship Mikasa immediately before engaging
Admiral Rozhestvensky's Russian Baltic Fleet at Tsushima Straits on May 27, 1905. The meaning of the signal is
variously translated, but seems to have meant, in substance, "The fate of Imperial Japan hangs on this one battle;
all hands will exert themselves and do their best."
Apparently the flag Admiral Nagumo hoisted on the aircraft carrier Akagi on the night of December 6, 1941,
when he judged that his fleet had achieved complete surprise over the US Navy, was the same actual flag flown
aboard Akagi 36 years before. As every Japanese officer and sailor would have grown up being taught about Togo's
signal, this was a powerful inspiration which obviously had precisely the same meaning as that conveyed by Togo's
signal."
The Imperial Fleet will not run from combat; this is the opportunity we have for a decisive battle!
The only way Andy can win back the Marquesas is to stand and fight!
- Only one side will remain on the battle field; come glorious death or victory.
Our ships are ready;
We have more aircraft, we have better pilots and better leaders!
Last turn we got a full detection / spotting of the enemy fleet; the KB isn't spotted and Andy doesn't know what to expect.
There is a good chance this can be decisive.
I have filled out the capacity of the 6 KB carriers to they do indeed hold 450 operational ac and another 50 ac will support us from Nuku Hiva.
Andy has seen that his bombers can't hit the kitchen sink and will be afraid to engage.
So maybe there won't even be a battle; this together with weather and range will dedice whether there will be a battle tomorrow.
"Admiral Heiachiro Togo hoisted the Z flag aboard his flagship Mikasa immediately before engaging
Admiral Rozhestvensky's Russian Baltic Fleet at Tsushima Straits on May 27, 1905. The meaning of the signal is
variously translated, but seems to have meant, in substance, "The fate of Imperial Japan hangs on this one battle;
all hands will exert themselves and do their best."
Apparently the flag Admiral Nagumo hoisted on the aircraft carrier Akagi on the night of December 6, 1941,
when he judged that his fleet had achieved complete surprise over the US Navy, was the same actual flag flown
aboard Akagi 36 years before. As every Japanese officer and sailor would have grown up being taught about Togo's
signal, this was a powerful inspiration which obviously had precisely the same meaning as that conveyed by Togo's
signal."
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- SNAG-0882.jpg (312.3 KiB) Viewed 175 times
"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
...Andy ran away; no sign of enemy carriers [:'(]
"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower
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CapAndGown
- Posts: 3078
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Virginia, USA
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CapAndGown
- Posts: 3078
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Virginia, USA
RE: RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
Banz. . . Ooops.
RE: RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
KB fuel is getting low anyway so guess it's time to find the replenishment tankers!
Andy revealed some info; can be a ruse but he says he wanted to ambush the KB with all his carriers including CVE's carrying 600 ac...but was late for the party!
600 ac is much more than I thought he could muster; must have brought a damaged carrier (or fixed it in record time) to achieve that.
Lexington: 90
Saratoga: 90
Wasp: 72
Enterprise: 90
Yorktown (damaged or repaired?): 90
British cv: 40
------------------------------
Thats 472 ac!
I've sunk one CVE but it's possible that he got another 2 or 3, that would contribute another 90 ac or so.
This turn didn't see much action; a few sweeps in Burma and a big Jap bombing attack against Shewbo that didn't cause much damage.
We did shoot down a dozen fighters or so and lost a handful of fighters and bombers in the process.
There are noe 30 enemy units in Shwebo; still a size 1 AF.
The question is if we should dare to attack the hornets nest!
Can we supply an army in there and survive a shock attack - and how much AV to we need to dare it?
What do you think?
We've managed to coordinate our strikes in Burma lately; that's something.
One bomber unit went in alone today and lost 2 ac - fortunately the armored Helen's are a bit durable.
Andy revealed some info; can be a ruse but he says he wanted to ambush the KB with all his carriers including CVE's carrying 600 ac...but was late for the party!
600 ac is much more than I thought he could muster; must have brought a damaged carrier (or fixed it in record time) to achieve that.
Lexington: 90
Saratoga: 90
Wasp: 72
Enterprise: 90
Yorktown (damaged or repaired?): 90
British cv: 40
------------------------------
Thats 472 ac!
I've sunk one CVE but it's possible that he got another 2 or 3, that would contribute another 90 ac or so.
This turn didn't see much action; a few sweeps in Burma and a big Jap bombing attack against Shewbo that didn't cause much damage.
We did shoot down a dozen fighters or so and lost a handful of fighters and bombers in the process.
There are noe 30 enemy units in Shwebo; still a size 1 AF.
The question is if we should dare to attack the hornets nest!
Can we supply an army in there and survive a shock attack - and how much AV to we need to dare it?
What do you think?
We've managed to coordinate our strikes in Burma lately; that's something.
One bomber unit went in alone today and lost 2 ac - fortunately the armored Helen's are a bit durable.
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- SNAG0884.jpg (460.18 KiB) Viewed 175 times
"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
Andy is practicing his skills in PsyOps. I doubt he would risk so much. Even if he could muster 600 planes, he's forces are surely not crème de la crème at this point...