lack of

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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: lack of

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

mmm...the trouble with this is how to handle changes to the estab data formats that take place. It can be done but would require a new version of the tool each time we change the format. I'll discuss what we can do with Paul. Stay tuned.
Let me take a moment to make sure that we're talking the same language... [;)]

To be as clear as possible, I'm not asking for a tool that would allow us to import data from CotA or HttR into BftB. Rather, I'm asking for one that will allow data from a previous, user-modded BftB estab to be imported into new versions of the BftB estab that emerge from Panther Games.

If the latter is what you understood me to be requesting, good deal!

For the benefit of our readers, let me briefly explain what's in play here...

From time to time, the developer issues patches for their games. Thank you Panther Games! But, they don't just address stability or bugs. They include changes to the game's data content. Without doubt, these patches improve the game, including any changes that are made to the data tables. Like anyone else, I'd prefer that any scenarios that I make for the game benefit from those same improvements.

However...

As we stand now, to get any weapons and units, that I built previously, into a new/patched estab, I have to start over again from scratch. [X(] Yes, I benefit from the research that I did, but the clerk work in doing it ALL over again will simply break my back. And, it becomes much more likely that I'll FUBAR a bunch of stuff in the process. I can't speak for Franklin Nimitz, or anyone else, but the prospect of reinventing this particular set of wheels strikes me as rather more than daunting.

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Arjuna
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RE: lack of

Post by Arjuna »

PoE,

We're on the same wave length. [:)]

I spoke with Paul today and he's going to take a look at this as he finishes off his new estab tool. What we'll end up with in effect is three estab tools. We already have the EstabEditor and EstabManager. The new tool ( whose name is yet to be determined ) will allow you to compare estabs in a table structure, like a spreadsheet. You will be able to edit many things but not all ( eg range tables ). We'll progressively improve it over time. What it will allow you to do is to compare estabs en masse and make edits for consistency etc. We'll also look into adding a function to import/merge estab items from previous BFTB estab files.

As to when this will be available - well that depends on how long it takes us to finish our re-equipment process here. We've bought a new router and server and we need to get these up and running as a priority. Hopefully we can finish this off by the end of next week. The we'll give the new estab tool priority. So hopefully, we can finish this off by the end of October. We'll probably release it as part of a second patch.

How does that sound?

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com
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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: lack of

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

How does that sound?

It sounds great.[:)]

And let me respond to Merv0728's concern that this is all simply too much.

I've actually done quite a bit of weapon/unit experimentation with the editor. And you're right, that researching this stuff is a task in and of itself. But, it's definitely worth doing if you want to game a favorite battle. That said, you might want to find yourself a buddy that shares your interest in a particular operation. That way you can spread the work around.

I'll close with a screen-capture. It's of a scenario that I'm using to test the special forces that I created for the Anzio scenarios that I want to make. You can't see them, but there are some German FJ in the vicinity of Aprilia. Every unit that's visible is scratch built using the modding tools that were included in BftB. If you don't want to build your own units, you can simply use the ones that are provided in the stock estabs.

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wodin
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RE: lack of

Post by wodin »

Looking good PoE...
Chief Rudiger
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RE: lack of

Post by Chief Rudiger »

I wouldn't be suprised if a lot of people are busy creating scenarios and estabs but not thinking them worth "releasing". Certainly, I've put a lot of work into one major scenario and multiple smaller ones but, like others here, have found difficulty with research and OOBs, but only really because i'm looking for too much perfection. Does anyone really care whether Vichy French Syrian Native Cav companys had any LMG's or grenade dischargers? Similarly, how important is an accurate map - as long is it plays okay.

This i think is another major problem. Once you've built your own estabs, like PoE, how do you know they really "work" properly, given the abstraction of the engine (especially when your new units are in the hands of the AI). Getting the AI to do what you want using the objectives is also (something i certainly find) dificult.

Also, if you're like me and like to try weird things out, this side-tracks you and you end up never finishing anything fully. Maybe the sheer possibilities the editors gives you means people are working on too big projects. See the number of "dead" mods for other games like the Total War series. At least nobody has released a "big heads" mod or something daft, Star Wars related.

Anyway, i digress, nobody's probably read this far, but I know releasing a WIP scenario and having other play test it would probably be the answer but an hestitant to do so until the editor improvements are made, so that i can easily go through everything i've done.

To end of a negative; What i don't think helps is the amount of "pointless" info in the estabs, which is only there for future use - like vehicle personnel carrying capacity, which you sometimes don't know whether to ignore or spend an hour researching the answer too...

Chief Rudiger
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RE: lack of

Post by Chief Rudiger »

And if someone with an eye for colours could suggest icon colours for Vichy French Troops du Levant and Colonials i'd appreciate it. Every colour if thought of looks naff to the extent that ALL my units are Grey. Just Grey.
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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: lack of

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

Certainly, I've put a lot of work into one major scenario and multiple smaller ones but, like others here, have found difficulty with research and OOBs, but only really because i'm looking for too much perfection. Does anyone really care whether Vichy French Syrian Native Cav companys had any LMG's or grenade dischargers? Similarly, how important is an accurate map - as long is it plays okay.

IMO, the detail is what makes it fun/interesting, even if no one else knows what's going on under the hood. In this regard, there are aspects of what I do that border on the occult. Of course, you can take this sort of thing too far. A friend of mine is a modeler and built a PBY with a scratch-made interior that's only visible through two tiny windows in the fuselage. If I hadn't seen him add the items before he sealed the two halves together, I'd have no idea of how much work went into it.
This i think is another major problem. Once you've built your own estabs, like PoE, how do you know they really "work" properly, given the abstraction of the engine (especially when your new units are in the hands of the AI). Getting the AI to do what you want using the objectives is also (something i certainly find) dificult

Whenever possible, I take items from the stock estabs and simply rename them. If necessary, I modify the stock values to get me where I want to go. I'm also constantly "cloning" items, so that I reduce the possibility of transcription/transposition errors to a bare minimum. That way, so long as my base estab items are sound, all the clones will be as well. All I have to worry about is getting the various strengths, names and counter labels correct. The spreadsheet modding tools utility helps a lot with that last part. When all is said and done, I test the new forces in a scenario like the one that I constructed for my commandos.
Also, if you're like me and like to try weird things out, this side-tracks you and you end up never finishing anything fully. Maybe the sheer possibilities the editors gives you means people are working on too big projects. See the number of "dead" mods for other games like the Total War series. At least nobody has released a "big heads" mod or something daft, Star Wars related.

At one time, I was working on four different scenarios at once, spanning three different maps. I think that I almost drove myself mad in the process. The problem arose because I kept coming across "cool stuff" during my ongoing research, items that I want to include in one work or another. Since then, I've gotten organized and created "folders" to store this/that little tidbit until I return to its associated operation.
Anyway, i digress, nobody's probably read this far, but I know releasing a WIP scenario and having other play test it would probably be the answer but an hestitant to do so until the editor improvements are made, so that i can easily go through everything i've done.

Let her rip, Rudiger. I must have played your "Goose Green" scenario a dozen times. Feedback can only help you improve your work.
To end of a negative; What i don't think helps is the amount of "pointless" info in the estabs, which is only there for future use - like vehicle personnel carrying capacity, which you sometimes don't know whether to ignore or spend an hour researching the answer too...

YES, PANTHER GAMES, please let us know what's disabled so that we can cease researching arcane matters that are of no more use to your game or our scenarios than the interior detail of my buddy's PBY!
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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: lack of

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

And if someone with an eye for colours could suggest icon colours for Vichy French Troops du Levant and Colonials i'd appreciate it. Every colour if thought of looks naff to the extent that ALL my units are Grey. Just Grey.

You know, I think that there's actually a color called "French Blue." I believe that's the color of their dress uniforms. As to field uniforms/colors, I believe that the Vichy French would have worn the same uniforms as this guy, kinda of a grunbraun:

http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=2145


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FredSanford3
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RE: lack of

Post by FredSanford3 »

Here's what I was thinking for the French (1940). I have the estabs for a French infantry regiment, but was waiting on the xml editor, since I have these in the old, pre-patch estab file and don't want to manually transpose all those estabs (not just French, but some others as well).

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RE: lack of

Post by BletchleyGeek »

I have started to work on Soviet estabs for 1944, looking forward to write a serie of scenarios inspired by the battles covered by OCS' Baltic Gap boardgame.

I've found three problems:

First, at the very micro-level, to find reliable sources for the parameter data (projectile weight, caliber, muzzle speed, etc.) of Soviet equipment in general. While I have a not bad but neither good source for 1944 Soviet TO&E - Steven J. Zaloga "Red Army Handbook 1939-1945" - the technical specs I've found so far look to me contradictory or incomplete.

Second, I stopped working on this basically because it was taking me too much time - and it was very error-prone - to manually export the TO&E data from my spreadsheets into the estab editor. I am not very sure what's that "xml editor" in the works about, but my idea is to write a simple program which encodes CSV files into XML documents which comply with Panther Games' schema and then use the estab editor to polish and add some chrome.

Another, totally different kind of trouble I've found so far, is to wade through the very chaotic state of the Red Army organization at the time and varying force levels. I am not sure I'm qualified to do that kind of modeling, especially on such a poorly documented campaign. OCS' OOB data will be very helpful to get a general picture of the state of the fronts engaged in that campaign. But that, of course, will also take some time.
Chief Rudiger
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RE: lack of

Post by Chief Rudiger »

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

Here's what I was thinking for the French (1940). I have the estabs for a French infantry regiment, but was waiting on the xml editor, since I have these in the old, pre-patch estab file and don't want to manually transpose all those estabs (not just French, but some others as well).

Image

You went for red text too! I live your blue, i may have to steal it!

I was thinking of also using colour variations to highlight the difference between Foriegn Legion/Colonial/North African Tirailleur Regulars and local Lebanese/Syria garrison troops. Thoughts?
Chief Rudiger
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RE: lack of

Post by Chief Rudiger »

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Whenever possible, I take items from the stock estabs and simply rename them. If necessary, I modify the stock values to get me where I want to go. I'm also constantly "cloning" items, so that I reduce the possibility of transcription/transposition errors to a bare minimum. That way, so long as my base estab items are sound, all the clones will be as well. All I have to worry about is getting the various strengths, names and counter labels correct. The spreadsheet modding tools utility helps a lot with that last part. When all is said and done, I test the new forces in a scenario like the one that I constructed for my commandos.

Yeah, i started out just cloning units until i go so bored cloning the COTA tuturials that i "BFTB'ed" by self out! Since then i've b eome pretty confident with the program and usually just started from scratch each time, so i don't leave field unchanged, and other than a mortar platoon that never mortars things haven't worked out too bad.

I stupidly created a whole Norweign estab, inculding French and British 1940 estabs, before realising it wasn't in the same file as the Australian Division estabs i made for the COTA scenarios and wanted to use for Syria-Lebanon and had to re enter it all in one... so i know what you mean about not wanting to do work over again, or again and again!

Still, the only thing i clone now is weapons, because range/effectiveness data is kind of hard to come by... and almost everything i've needed is there, even the French "75", which i think is in the estab for an early M3 half-track tank destroyer! Maybe i'm wrong, but i think this is exactly the same weapons... and hopefully the data is correct!

I don't think the biggest problem is the estab editor, more the scenmaker, and typing out all the unit names (mind none are duplicates) and unit icon abbreviations that are always one character too long!

Oh, and if Ctrl + C and V worked as copy and paste rather than having to right click all the time would be a create help!
FredSanford3
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RE: lack of

Post by FredSanford3 »

I went with the light blue and red because those were the 'classic' French Army uniform colors. These obviously were replaced- eventually (I think they kept the red trousers until after the start of WW1). Like these fellows:
Image

We can't have everybody khaki-colored. For foreign legion, colonial, Vichy, etc. I'd just do variations of the shading of these basic colors.

I would like to know what the "official" RGB values are for the blue and the red used.
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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: lack of

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

We can't have everybody khaki-colored.
Amen.

At some point, they become indistinguishable from one another.
I would like to know what the "official" RGB values are for the blue and the red used.

Look here:

http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/1278B9/
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Chief Rudiger
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RE: lack of

Post by Chief Rudiger »

Wikipedia states the tricolore as having the following RGB values

(0,85,164) (255,255,255) (250,60,50)

Interestingly it states the flag's coloured bands were originally of different widths because "flapping of the flag makes portions farther from the halyard seem smaller"...

This was also apparently the flag of French Sudan:

Image

Poor effort.

Chief Rudiger
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RE: lack of

Post by Chief Rudiger »

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

We can't have everybody khaki-colored. For foreign legion, colonial, Vichy, etc. I'd just do variations of the shading of these basic colors.

I actually made a Narvik Scenario where both sides were Grey, with the Germans having black and Norweigians blue text, Against a snowy background i thought it worked quite well, especially when units got intermingled on the objective and you couldn't easily tell whose units were routing etc. Added to the immersion! Apparently a lot of Germans were shot for being captured in Norweign uniform.

I'm going to finish playing with my unit colours tonight and "release" a WiP scenario.
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