Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Gamers can also use this forum to chat about any game related subject, news, rumours etc.

Moderator: maddog986

User avatar
SLAAKMAN
Posts: 2556
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:50 am
Contact:

Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by SLAAKMAN »

Great documentary; [:D]

Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClaMmidimtU
President Roosevelt (FDR) provoked the attack, knew about it in advance and covered up his failure to warn the Hawaiian commanders. FDR needed the attack to declare war, since the public and Congress were overwhelmingly against entering the war in Europe. It was his backdoor to war.
FDR blinded the commanders at Pearl Harbor and set them up by -

denying intelligence to Hawaii (HI)
on Nov 27, misleading the commanders into thinking negotiations with Japan were continuing to prevent them from realizing the war was on
having false information sent to HI about the location of the Japanese carrier fleet.

BACKGROUND
1904 - The Japanese destroyed the Russian navy in a surprise attack in undeclared war.
1932 - In The Grand Joint Army Navy Exercises the attacker, Admiral Yarnell, attacked with 152 planes a half-hour before dawn 40 miles NE of Kahuku Point and caught the defenders of Pearl Harbor completely by surprise. It was a Sunday.
1938 - Admiral Ernst King led a carrier-born airstrike from the USS Saratoga successfully against Pearl Harbor in another exercise.
1940 - FDR ordered the fleet transferred from the West Coast to its exposed position in Hawaii and ordered the fleet remain stationed at Pearl Harbor over complaints by its commander Admiral Richardson that there was inadequate protection from air attack and no protection from torpedo attack. Richardson felt so strongly that he twice disobeyed orders to berth his fleet there and he raised the issue personally with FDR in October and he was soon after replaced. His successor, Admiral Kimmel, also brought up the same issues with FDR in June 1941.
7 Oct 1940 - Navy IQ analyst McCollum wrote an 8 point memo on how to force Japan into war with US. Beginning the next day FDR began to put them into effect and all 8 were eventually accomplished.
11 November 1940 - 21 aged British planes destroyed the Italian fleet, including 3 battleships, at their homeport in the harbor of Taranto in Southern Italy by using technically innovative shallow-draft torpedoes.
11 February 1941 - FDR proposed sacrificing 6 cruisers and 2 carriers at Manila to get into war. Navy Chief Stark objected: "I have previously opposed this and you have concurred as to its unwisdom. Particularly do I recall your remark in a previous conference when Mr. Hull suggested (more forces to Manila) and the question arose as to getting them out and your 100% reply, from my standpoint, was that you might not mind losing one or two cruisers, but that you did not want to take a chance on losing 5 or 6." (Charles Beard PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT AND THE COMING OF WAR 1941, p 424)
March 1941 - FDR sold munitions and convoyed them to belligerents in Europe -- both acts of war and both violations of international law -- the Lend-Lease Act.
23 Jun 1941 - Advisor Harold Ickes wrote FDR a memo the day after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, "There might develop from the embargoing of oil to Japan such a situation as would make it not only possible but easy to get into this war in an effective way. And if we should thus indirectly be brought in, we would avoid the criticism that we had gone in as an ally of communistic Russia." FDR was pleased with Admiral Richmond Turner's report read July 22: "It is generally believed that shutting off the American supply of petroleum will lead promptly to the invasion of Netherland East Indies...it seems certain she would also include military action against the Philippine Islands, which would immediately involve us in a Pacific war." On July 24 FDR told the Volunteer Participation Committee, "If we had cut off the oil off, they probably would have gone down to the Dutch East Indies a year ago, and you would have had war." The next day FDR froze all Japanese assets in US cutting off their main supply of oil and forcing them into war with the US. Intelligence information was withheld from Hawaii from this point forward.
14 August - At the Atlantic Conference, Churchill noted the "astonishing depth of Roosevelt's intense desire for war." Churchill cabled his cabinet "(FDR) obviously was very determined that they should come in."
18 October - diary entry by Secretary of Interior Harold Ickes: "For a long time I have believed that our best entrance into the war would be by way of Japan."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CODES
Purple Code - the top Japanese diplomatic machine cipher which used automatic telephone switches to separately and differently encipher each character sent. It was cracked by the Army Signal Intelligence Service (331 men).
J-19 was the main Japanese diplomatic code book. This columnar code was cracked.
Coral Machine Cipher or JNA-20 was a simplified version of Purple used by Naval attaches. Only one message deciphered prior to Pearl Harbor has been declassified.
JN-25 - The Japanese Fleet's Cryptographic System, a.k.a. 5 number code (Sample). JN stands for Japanese Navy, introduced 1 June 1939. This was a very simple old-type code book system used by the American Army and Navy in 1898 and abandoned in 1917 because it was insecure. Version A has a dictionary of 5,600 numbers, words and phrases, each given as a five figure number. These were super-enciphered by addition to random numbers contained in a second code book. The dictionary was only changed once before PH on Dec 1, 1940, to a slightly larger version B but the random book was changed every 3 to 6 months- last on Aug 1. The Japanese blundered away the code when they introduced JN25-B by continuing to use, for 2 months, random books that had been previously solved by the Allies. That was the equivalent of handing over the JN-25B codebook. It was child's play for the Navy group OP-20-G (738 men whose primary responsibility was Japanese naval codes) to reconstruct the exposed dictionary. We recovered the whole thing immediately - in 1994 the NSA published that JN-25B was completely cracked in December 1940. In January 1941 the US gave Britain two JN-25B code books with keys and techniques for deciphering. The entire Pearl Harbor scheme was laid out in this code. The official US Navy statement on JN-25B is the NAVAL SECURITY GROUP HISTORY TO WORLD WAR II prepared by Captain J. Holtwick in June 1971, page 398: "By 1 December 1941 we had the code solved to a readable extent." Churchill wrote "From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams."(GRAND ALLIANCE p 598) Chief of Navy codebreaking Safford reported that during 1941 "The Navy COMINT team did a thorough job on the Japanese Navy with no help from the Army."(SRH-149) The first paragraph of the Congressional Report Exhibit 151 says the US was "currently" (instantly) reading JN-25B and exchanging the "translations" with the British prior to Pearl Harbor.
In 1979 the NSA released 2,413 JN-25 orders of the 26,581 intercepted by US between Sept 1 and Dec 4, 1941. The NSA says "We know now that they contained important details concerning the existence, organization, objective, and even the whereabouts of the Pearl Harbor Strike Force." (Parker p 21) Of the over thousand radio messages sent by Tokyo to the attack fleet, only 20 are in the National Archives. All messages to the attack fleet were sent several times, at least one message was sent every odd hour of the day and each had a special serial number. Starting in early November 1941 when the attack fleet assembled and started receiving radio messages, OP-20-G stayed open 24 hours a day and the "First Team" of codebreakers worked on JN-25. In November and early December 1941, OP-20-G spent 85 percent of its effort reading Japanese Navy traffic, 12 percent on Japanese diplomatic traffic and 3 percent on German naval codes. FDR was personally briefed twice a day on JN-25 traffic by his aide, Captain John Beardell, and demanded to see the original raw messages in English. The US Government refuses to identify or declassify any pre-Dec 7, 1941 decrypts of JN-25 on the basis of national security, a half-century after the war.

AD or Administrative Code wrongly called Admiralty Code was an old four character transposition code used for personnel matters. No important messages were sent in this weak code. Introduced Nov 1938, it was seldom used after Dec 1940.
Magic - the security designation given to all decoded Japanese diplomatic messages. It's hard not to conclude with historians like Charles Bateson that "Magic standing alone points so irresistibly to the Pearl Harbor attack that it is inconceivable anybody could have failed to forecast the Japanese move." The NSA reached the same conclusion in 1955.
Ultra - the security designation for military codes.

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill
User avatar
bairdlander2
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:25 am
Location: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by bairdlander2 »

I thought political threads were not allowed.
User avatar
jjax
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:42 am

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by jjax »

They are not, anyways I am pretty sure you would not consider this a political thread (and the topic has been talked about to death on these threads anyways).
--JJAX

User avatar
ilovestrategy
Posts: 3614
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:41 pm
Location: San Diego
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by ilovestrategy »

Oh please.  I need something more than a BBC documentary on YouTube to make me believe this. Now I really am convinced you should not believe everything you read on the internet. 
After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!
Image
User avatar
SLAAKMAN
Posts: 2556
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:50 am
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by SLAAKMAN »

and the topic has been talked about to death on these threads anyways).
"It is the doom of men that they forget."
Merlin the Magician
The Mighty Slaakman also doesnt allow men or women or aliens to forget either. [:D]
Oh please. I need something more than a BBC documentary on YouTube to make me believe this. Now I really am convinced you should not believe everything you read on the internet.

Wouldst thou care to elaborate? Retiring Elephants need to know. [:'(]
Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42111
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by warspite1 »

I don't think discussing events of seventy years ago is a problem from the political standpoint.

The problem with these threads though - and yes this has been discussed many times before - is that they tend to descend into the gutter and end up being locked.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
SLAAKMAN
Posts: 2556
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:50 am
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by SLAAKMAN »

Oh I really wasnt trying to cause drama here. I just wanted to post an interesting documentary that reveals some details before the attack. I dont really care if nobody agrees or believes it or whatnot.
Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42111
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Oh I really wasnt trying to cause drama here. I just wanted to post an interesting documentary that reveals some details before the attack. I dont really care if nobody agrees or believes it or whatnot.
Warspite1

No, and I certainly wasn't insinuating that that was your purpose in posting - just that sadly, some people cannot have a rational debate - and this is one of the topics that seems to lead very quickly from reasoned debate to thread locked in a short space of time.

For what its worth, I find the idea that Roosevelt was complicit in the deaths of 2,000 Americans preposterous - but there you go.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
ilovestrategy
Posts: 3614
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:41 pm
Location: San Diego
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by ilovestrategy »

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN
and the topic has been talked about to death on these threads anyways).
"It is the doom of men that they forget."
Merlin the Magician
The Mighty Slaakman also doesnt allow men or women or aliens to forget either. [:D]
Oh please. I need something more than a BBC documentary on YouTube to make me believe this. Now I really am convinced you should not believe everything you read on the internet.

Wouldst thou care to elaborate? Retiring Elephants need to know. [:'(]


Ok, I'll elaborate. There is no way that he could have gotten away with it. People have been trying to pin this on him for the last 70 years. Someone would have talked.

And even if FDR did withhold information the fact is we were caught with our pants down. Battleship row, lack of torpedo cables in front of ships, Sunday morning, Admirals knowing that things were heating up, planes bunched together on the airstrip, lack of air patrols and I bet there are other things I haven't thought of.

Warning or no warning, the fact is the Pearl Harbor Command goofed.
After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!
Image
User avatar
Doggie
Posts: 618
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Under the porch
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by Doggie »

You've never heard about the Canadian's role in Pearl Harbor, have you? That's because Canadians control the media.
User avatar
Doggie
Posts: 618
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Under the porch
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by Doggie »

Roosevelt Lied; Kids Died
---------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------
Well, it's not the first time an American administration has used lies and doctored intelligence information to lead us into a war.

On 7 December, 1941, there was a disastrous attack on the United States naval base at Pearl Harbor, in the illegally occupied territory of Hawaii. This came despite a memo delivered to the United States State Department on that very morning entitled "Japan determined to attack Pearl Harbor". U.S. Secretary of War Cordell Hull later claimed this memo was only received after the attack had begun, given the Roosevelt Administration's track record of conducting an illegal war against the German navy in defiance of the Neutrality Act and providing secret aid to the British forces who were illegally occupying sacred Aryan soil in France and Norway, we can hardly take his word for it.

The Roosevelt Administration immediately seized upon this opportunity to declare war against the sovereign nation of Japan, without even waiting for approval from the League of Nations or giving the Japanese a chance to respond to this ridiculous allegation. If indeed there were Japanese aircraft above Pearl Harbor, there is absolutely no evidence the government of Japan was either aware or approved of this operation. This was probably the work of a stateless carrier task force.

Naval experts at the time knew aerial torpedo attacks against American shipping at Ford Island were not even feasible, given the fact that the harbor was simply too shallow for them to function effectively. Film cameras on the scene recorded the destruction of the U.S. battleship Arizona, and a frame by frame analysis of this footage clearly shows this explosion was caused by a controlled demolition. There is no footage of the alleged "bomb" that supposedly penetrated the armor plated deck and ignited stored ammunition. Naval experts of the day scoffed at notions about battleships being sunk by aircraft. The fact that Arizona simply settled upright into the mud instead of capsizing is further evidence that persons unknown had simply scuttled the ship using demolition charges.

Given a blank check to to as he pleased by a stunned Congress, Roosevelt promptly invaded Guadalcanal, a defenseless island nation thousands of miles from Japan with absolutely no connection to the Pearl Harbor attack. In fact, there were not even any Japanese on Guadalcanal, and U.S. Marines stormed ashore at Tulagi and Lunga virtually unopposed. It was only after the unprovoked assault on this peacefull island territory that the Japanese arrived. The price paid by the defenseless native population was incalculable. Whole native villages were wiped out, innocent tribal chiefs were beheaded, and indiscriminate naval bombardments killed combatants and innocents alike.

Not content with the wholesale destruction in the pacific, the Roosevelt Administration then threw in with the British in their attempt at land grab in western europe. And once again, the first step was an incomprehensible invasion of North Africa. Not even the most gullible Anglo American apologist could come up any connection between North Africa and Pearl Harbor, yet the northern residents of this undeveloped continent endured years of savage warfare between the invading allied aggressors and the German Afrika Corps, who mounted a valiant defense against this unprovoked act of aggression.

Meanwhile, Joseph Kennedy Junior, the son of prominent New England politician with a promising life ahead of him, succumbed to peer pressure and propaganda and enlisted in the Army Air Corps in a misguided effort to fight "the Global War on Fascism." Imagine his disappointment when he ended up not fighting the Japanese, who he believed were responsible for an attack on the illegally occupied U.S. colony in Hawaii, but in imperialist Great Britain, helping the same monarchy that introduced slavery to North America maintain it's stranglehold on the rest of western Europe. He was then killed in a tragic friendly fire incident, the details of which were covered up by the pentagon for years afterwards. To this day the chickenhawks responsible for sending this promising young man to his death in a crusade based on lies have never held accountable.

Back in the United States, poor people suffered as food and gasoline were rationed to support the war effort. As resources and manpower were deployed overseas, there was no one left to deal with domestic matters. Shockingly, "enemy combatants" captured overseas and confined indefinitely with no access to defense consul were coerced into slave labor, harvesting crops and performing other jobs that went unfilled when the young men of the community were deployed overseas. Tragically, more than a half a dozen of these millions of illegally detained foreign nationals died in captivity.


And what was the reason for all this sacrifice and destruction? Introducing "freedom and democracy" to a bunch of ingrates in western Europe that were perfectly content with their aristocratic feudal system? Did anyone even bother to ask whether these savages were ready for democracy? After all, they'd been killing each other over religious differences and engaging in ethnic cleansing for centuries. No one even considered that the various factions might take advantage of the chaos introduced to their society to settle centuries old scores. Who were we to introduce capitalism and "democracy" to a bunch of aborigines who were perfectly content with their inbred monarchies and had learned to accept standing in line for hours for their ration of ersatz coffee and sawdust bread. Western Europe may have been a savage land full of bloodthirsty barbarians embracing a bankrupt culture, but they were effectively contained and posed no threat to the civilized countries in North America.


And look how grateful they are for all the sacrifices we made in their behalf. More than six decades of American imposed "democracy" and the pathetic heathens still engage in primitive rituals such as soccer matches and pagan festivals such as "fasching", where they drink themselves into a stupor and mate like crazed lemmings. You can travel the length of western Europe and not see a single indication of a civilized society, not even a pick up truck or a yellow dog under a porch.
When are we going to learn to stop wasting our resources trying to domesticate savages?
User avatar
parusski
Posts: 4789
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Jackson Tn
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by parusski »

Uh, Doggie I really hope you're being satirical. Otherwise that is one of the best told fantasy tells I have ever laid eyes on. I don't think I would be wise to respond past the end of this sentence. But lately...I don't care. I would be proud to hear Roosevelt actually, really, really did conduct secret wars(suppressed laughter). Then I would respect him more. Know any history. Such as the Japs invading Manchuria in 1931. How about those japs invading and brutalizing Manchuria. I am not being argumentative, I love history and somehow I missed just how the bad old USA orchestrated those two events. Let us know, OK.

Then there is the thorny problem with Germany. I must have read hundreds of misleading history books. So how did the U.S., Britain or France get Germany to re militarize Rhineland?(Yeah, I bet I know the answer-secret meetings between FRD and Adolph, and FDR just invited Germany to roll????) I have been looking for the answer to how Hitler got everything he wanted, well except for victory. How about Germany's 1938 occupation of Austria?

TIME OUT, One last question: You stated the following-"And what was the reason for all this sacrifice and destruction? Introducing "freedom and democracy" to a bunch of ingrates in western Europe that were perfectly content with their aristocratic feudal system?" My question to that statement is what were the Japanese trying to impose on Manchuria by the rape and slaughter of hundreds of thousands??? What were the Germans trying to "Introduce..." By taking over every country they could till they were bled white.

I can't take this. Too many weird accusation's, I get a headache every time one of the 14 people who believe this bring up these issues.

Merry Xmas and GOD BLESS AMERICA..and Canada too, I guess.
"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman
User avatar
06 Maestro
Posts: 3997
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:50 pm
Location: Nevada, USA

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by 06 Maestro »

LOL-Doggie, you should write a trilogy of that history-you will be a millionaire. The sad part is that so many would actually believe that not only are you serious, but stating the facts also. There is a market for that kind of thinking these days.

It would fit right in with the current crowed-hell, even the President of the U.S. just apologized to Guatemala (or nearby holy nation) for the U.S. conducting medical experiments on some of its mental patients-in 1949 IIRC. Mix a little truth with the rest-it will work.
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
ilovestrategy
Posts: 3614
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:41 pm
Location: San Diego
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by ilovestrategy »

+1 to Doggie! [:D]
After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!
Image
User avatar
SLAAKMAN
Posts: 2556
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:50 am
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by SLAAKMAN »

Doggie
(The Swampmutt condones censorship so I rule his pukey satire to be invalid.) [:-][:'(]
Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill
ezzler
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:44 pm

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by ezzler »

Just recently, in responding to another famous 'incident' in which some people believe that the USA government was responsible, used this conspiracy theory.

The basic premise is WHY? That is the question that needs to be answered. In this case WHY did the president deem it necessary to sink his fleet and destroy his air force of the most modern planes in the USAAF armoury, discredit his most able Admiral and show the entire world the weakness of the United States, at a time when the axis was dominant?

In other words, what kind of a dimwit would encourage a war against Japan but in order to achieve that aim would lose the very naval and air assets that were required to fight that war?

IF the Japanese were known to be coming why not ambush them? The entire carrier fleet of the IJN could have been destroyed 200 miles out. War still goes ahead, Japan still the aggressor.


In the BACKGROUND of the original post all of those date points have a valid reason. None is displayed. Its as one sided as the unbelievers who say "Why is the flag fluttering on the moon! Its supposed to be in a vacuum!"
And don't put the answer .. "because of the metal rod that holds the flag straight out otherwise it would be a limp cloth. The flag only moves when the astronauts touch it, which complies with the laws of physics."

User avatar
Yogi the Great
Posts: 1949
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Wisconsin

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by Yogi the Great »

ORIGINAL: ezz

The basic premise is WHY? That is the question that needs to be answered. In this case WHY did the president deem it necessary to sink his fleet and destroy his air force of the most modern planes in the USAAF armoury, discredit his most able Admiral and show the entire world the weakness of the United States, at a time when the axis was dominant?

In other words, what kind of a dimwit would encourage a war against Japan but in order to achieve that aim would lose the very naval and air assets that were required to fight that war?

Ok, not being presented as fact, but just as a possible reason of why?

Short answer - to get the US out of the depression. For all the efforts the New Deal was a failure. Could it be that a war would be the medicine needed to pull the country out of it? It was WWII that actually managed to pull the country out of the depression. Victory then even made the US a "super power" not just militarily but for many years financially.

What kind of Dimwit? If it were true the answer is not a dimwit at all, but a cunning, shrewd and perhaps diabolically brilliant wit. Take away any specifics suggested in this thread. Just ask is it possible that someone might see an advantage to going to war? Many obviously had various reasons on both sides to do so. What if the majority didn't want war or at least there was significant resistance to war. Maybe the specifics of an attack would not be known, just that there would be an attack somewhere. Is it possible that you would not know eactly where or when? Is it possible that you would not expect it to be able to cause such substantial losses? Is it possible that by letting an attack happen, you would not have to take the blame?

Yes there have been many conspiracy theories about many things even up to current events. Is this one silly? It has been around now for many years and will probably never go away completely. Once again if true, why? Because someone felt there would be an advantage to go to war and the only way to not be blamed is to let someone else start it. We are free to Believe it or not.
Hooked Since AH Gettysburg
anarchyintheuk
Posts: 3958
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 7:08 pm
Location: Dallas

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by anarchyintheuk »

I've seen that list or a similar list many times, often here on the Matrix forum (more likely in the AE section). Having reviewed it again, imo it's still a steaming pile.
User avatar
BAL
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:03 pm
Location: West of the Missouri

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by BAL »

I blame the Taliban.

You know they're people, too. [:'(]
I'll try being nicer if you try being less stupid. - anon
User avatar
SLAAKMAN
Posts: 2556
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:50 am
Contact:

RE: Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor: Manipulations Into War

Post by SLAAKMAN »

ilovestrategy
Warning or no warning, the fact is the Pearl Harbor Command goofed.
When I was in the service I was told by a WWII Navy officer Vet who was at Pearl on that morning that the prevailing zeitgeist regarding defensibility was that the harbor was too shallow for torpedo's & that Japan's carrier air didnt possess bombs capable of penetrating US battleship armor (how the hell that happened is typical of US War Dept hubris at the time. Reminds me of the braindead experts who decided F4-Phantoms wouldnt need cannon in 'Nam). [:-]

And even if FDR did withhold information the fact is we were caught with our pants down. Battleship row, lack of torpedo cables in front of ships, Sunday morning, Admirals knowing that things were heating up, planes bunched together on the airstrip, lack of air patrols and I bet there are other things I haven't thought of.

Warning or no warning, the fact is the Pearl Harbor Command goofed.

FDR was trying to provoke a war with the Axis especially after Barbarossa started. His motive was to support the Soviet Union so that the Communist experiment would be protected. Marxism was his pet-project and he was one of the primary proponents behind recognition of the Bolshvik regime in 1933. His administration was loaded with Communists and Stalin considered Roosevelt to be his best defacto-agent. Roosevelt was as dirty as Obama is now;
FDR's patriot purge.
n its efforts to suppress patriotic dissent, the pro-soviet FDR administration used many of the tactics falsely attributed to Senator McCarthy.

In an Oval Office conversation that took place in 1940, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt tried to persuade Congressman Martin Dies of Texas to call off his investigation of Communist subversion in the U.S. government. Dies, chairman of the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HCUA HCUA House Committee on Unamerican Activities (usually seen as HUAC)
HCUA Honeywell Computer Users Association ), was puzzled by this request. After all, FDR had personally urged Dies to take the HCUA post in order to investigate the activities of suspected agents of National Socialist (Nazi) Germany.

Dies eagerly dug into his task, which he understood to be investigating and exposing the efforts of all agents of foreign subversion -- both Nazi and Communist. With the arrival of the pro-Soviet New Deal "Brain Trust" in 1933, scores of Communist foreign nationals had arrived on our shores to organize and direct subversive efforts. In 1935, prior to becoming HCUA chairman, Dies introduced a measure to deport Communist foreign nationals. Although the bill quickly passed the House, a coalition of Senate leftists, led by socialist Robert LaFollette of Wisconsin, prevented it from reaching the Senate floor.

In his memoir, Dies observed that "Fascism, Nazism and Communism were ideological bedfellows" -- all of them alien to our nation's founding philosophy. "Americanism is the recognition of the truth that the inherent and fundamental rights of man are derived from God, and not from Government, societies, dictators, kings, or majorities," wrote Dies. He was not at all surprised when Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, supposedly irreconcilable enemies, signed the August 1939 non-aggression pact preparatory to their gang rape of Poland.

"The dictators, Stalin and Hitler, are alike in many ways," wrote Dies in his 1940 expose, The Trojan Horse in America. "Long before Hitler cynically abandoned his anti-communist pretense and entered into an alliance with Stalin, the Nazi dictator had appropriated almost all of the tactics of the communists. In no other respect is this similarity between the red and brown dictators more striking than in their common use of Trojan Horse methods of conquest."

Prior to the Hitler-Stalin pact, the Kremlin-directed Communist Party U.S.A. had vociferously urged American military intervention against Nazi Germany. But once Moscow and Berlin became allies, the American Communists became just as passionately "isolationist" for purely cynical reasons.

At the time of Dies' White House conversation with FDR, the American Reds were not only overtly allied with the Nazis, but also seeking to obstruct U.S. involvement in the European war. They, of course, abandoned this position in June 1941, after Hitler double-crossed Stalin by invading Russia. Determined as FDR was to entangle America in a European war, he was just as determined to protect his Communist friends and allies - even though the Moscow-line American Communist movement was actively sabotaging our defense industry.

"In the days of the Stalin-Hitler pact, the program of the Communist Party called for a determined opposition to our national defense program," recalled Dies. "In early 1941, as our preparedness program was getting under way, a wave of sabotage strikes in [Communist-infiltrated] defense industries ... reached its peak. From the beginning, the [HCUA] had pointed out that these work stoppages were led by known Communists, and that the Party's program called for such interference with our military and industrial preparedness. Damage was incalculable."

Dies and his fellow HCUA investigators had anticipated this seditious campaign, and had warned FDR about it by the time of Dies' 1940 Oval Office confrontation. Nonetheless, FDR used that encounter to brow-beat Dies for his supposedly excessive concern about Communist infiltration.

"The President was furious," Dies wrote in his memoir, The Martin Dies Story. "I was surprised at his anger. He called me 'Mr. Congressman' -- he had called me 'Martin' before -- 'Mr. Congressman, you must see a bug-a-boo under every bed.' 'No, I never look under the bed,' I replied. 'Well,' he said, 'I have never seen a man that had such exaggerated ideas.... I do not believe in Communism any more than you do, but there is nothing wrong with the Communists in this country. Several of the best friends I have are Communists.'"

Communist infiltration of the U.S. government had already
occurred on a grand scale during the reign of Roosevelt.

For the seven years he headed the HCUA, Dies was given free rein to investigate Nazi and Fascist front groups. But the Roosevelt administration impeded every effort Dies undertook to expose Communist espionage, sabotage, and infiltration of government, academe, the defense industry, and unions. FDR's allies in the press mocked and defamed Dies, and the IRS An abbreviation for the Internal Revenue Service, a federal agency charged with the responsibility of administering and enforcing internal revenue laws. subjected the congressman to a harassing audit. He was even offered the vice presidency if he would call off his investigation. In 1945, weary and heartsick, Dies retired from political life.

Seven years later, while dining at Harvey' s Restaurant in Washington, D.C., Dies was approached by Senator Joseph McCarthy, who was contemplating his own counter-subversion investigation. Drawing on his experience as HCUA chairman, Dies advised McCarthy "to move cautiously until he was sure of his footing; to beware of unsupported charges that would soon be flooding his offices, and never to underestimate the cleverness and resourcefulness of the Communists and their fellow travelers." Most importantly, Dies warned McCarthy that he could expect "abuse, ridicule, and every known device of 'character assassination' and mental torture" to be used against him and his family.

In issuing that warning to McCarthy, Dies undoubtedly had in mind not only his own experience, but that of other patriotic Americans targeted for harassment and persecution during the FDR era. In dealing with patriotic dissent, the Commie-coddling FDR administration used many of the brutal tactics that have since been falsely associated with Joseph McCarthy's anti-Communist efforts.

The Crackdown

Bear in mind that Senator McCarthy's investigations focused entirely on the actions of people employed by the U.S. government. While he was an ardent anti-Communist, McCarthy never sought to criminalize membership in the American Communist Party. FDR's attempted political purge, by way of contrast, focused almost exclusively on private citizens, beginning with people associated with disreputable pro-Nazi organizations but expanding to include law-abiding, patriotic citizens whose activism posed a threat to his ambitions.

From the beginning of FDR's reign, federal investigators "were free to devote a great deal of energy and attention to the tax records and finances of politicians who sought to use anti-Semitic appeals to attack the Roosevelt administration," notes Professor Benjamin Ginsberg of Johns Hopkins University Johns Hopkins University, mainly at Baltimore, Md. Johns Hopkins in 1867 had a group of his associates incorporated as the trustees of a university and a hospital, endowing each with $3.5 million. Daniel C. in his book The Fatal Embrace. After Pearl Harbor, "The Roosevelt administration [decided] ... to take even more decisive action against anti-Semitic, pro-German forces in the United States. These were, for the most part, destroyed through indictments, arrests, and, in some cases, deportations."

But FDR and his minions weren't simply uprooting pro-Nazi front groups; the administration was much more interested in shutting down opponents of its war plans, particularly the leaders of the "America First" movement. Although the America First movement officially ceased operations after Pearl Harbor, many of its leaders -- such as journalist/author John T. Flynn John Thomas Flynn (October 25, 1882-1964) was a U.S. journalist.

He was born in Bladensburg, Maryland in 1882. Although he graduated from Georgetown Law School, he choose a career in journalism. -- continued to criticize FDR's duplicity DUPLICITY, pleading. Duplicity of pleading consists in multiplicity of distinct matter to one and the same thing, whereunto several answers are required. Duplicity may occur in one and the same pleading. .

Flynn provoked FDR's wrath in 1939 by publishing a series of Yale Review essays critical of the president-for-life and his Brain Trust. In a personal letter to the Yale Review's editor, FDR condemned Flynn as "a destructive rather than a constructive force" whose work "should be barred from ... any presentable daily paper, monthly magazine or national quarterly." Shortly thereafter, Flynn -- a well-respected and widely read commentator -- found himself effectively blacklisted by almost the entire publishing industry.

FDR similarly tried to destroy famed aviator Charles Lindbergh, who was among the America First movement's most prominent and effective advocates. After Pearl Harbor, Lindbergh offered his services to the military, only to learn that FDR had issued orders forbidding the aviator to enlist. Military contractors Curtis Wright, Pan Am, and United Aircraft sought out Lindbergh for his aviation expertise, but FDR ordered them to keep the "Lone Eagle" off the payroll.

Determined to serve his country, Lindbergh took an unpaid position at Ford's Willow Run facility, where he contributed significantly to the design and production of military aircraft. Despite FDR's enlistment ban, Lindbergh also went on to fly 50 combat missions in the Pacific on behalf of the Navy. However, Lindbergh - the most admired man in America during the 1 920s and early 1930s - was relentlessly smeared by the FDR administration and its media flacks as a Nazi sympathizer, an undeserved stigma that continues to this day.

Private Spies

In dealing with its political enemies, the Roosevelt administration used various networks of private informants. The most influential of these vigilante vigilante n. someone who takes the law into his/her own hands by trying and/or punishing another person without any legal authority. In the 1800s groups of vigilantes dispensed "frontier justice" by holding trials of accused horse-thieves, rustlers and shooters, and groups was the so-called Anti-Defamation League Anti-Defamation League of
B’nai B’rith organization which supposedly fights anti-Semitism. [Am. Hist.: Wigoder, 33]
In his study The Watchdogs, political historian Laird Wilcox points out that the ADL "has labored long and hard to ingratiate itself to federal law enforcement authorities, ostensibly as 'experts' on their own enemies." The ADL's enemies list historically has included not only anti-Semitic groups, but also patriotic organizations whose views the ADL rejects.

During the Roosevelt era, notes Professor Ginsberg, "the ADL often employed investigative agents who secretly penetrated isolationist and anti-Semitic organizations and collected potentially damaging or incriminating information. Information secured by the ADL was often turned over to federal agencies such as the FBI and the Immigration Bureau for possible criminal action. The ADL also worked closely with such sympathetic newspaper columnists and broadcasters as Walter Winchell and Drew Pearson [who] used their columns to publicize and attack the activities of isolationist and proNazi groups and politicians, relying heavily upon the information supplied to them by ADL investigators."

The American Jewish Committee conducted similar quasi-official surveillance of "isolationist" and anti-Jewish groups, and "over a period of five years compiled a card index listing fifty thousand individuals who had some association with these organizations. This index was frequently used by the FBI and army and navy intelligence offices."

Note that the indices compiled by the ADL and the AJC indiscriminately commingled intelligence about pro-Nazi groups with information about patriotic groups opposed to U.S. entry into World War II. This was a preferred tactic of the Roosevelt administration and its far-left allies. One particularly notorious example was provided by "Friends of Democracy", a Marxist group created in the 1930s to agitate for early U.S. entry in the European war. FOD hired an Armenian immigrant named Avedis Derounian to act as a spy and agent provocateur within the America First movement.

Using the pseudonym, "John Roy Carlson," Derounian published two scurrilous exposes of the "isolationist" right: Under Cover and The Plotters. In those books, comments historian Justin Raimondo, Derounian/Carlson "used the old trick of focusing on the activities of marginal bigots who are then quoted as expressing agreement with the anti-war arguments" of the America First Committee The America First Committee was the foremost pressure group against American entry into the Second World War. Membership
AFC was established September, 4, 1940 by Yale law student R. Douglas Stuart, Jr. . Derounian's best-selling books equated "all criticism of the New Deal and FDR with treason and support for Hitler."

Derounian's writings, many of which had been published serially in the Communist press before being compiled in book form, described a vast right-wing conspiracy. "Vast right-wing conspiracy" was a phrase used by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton in 1998 in defense of her husband President Bill Clinton and his administration during the Lewinsky scandal, characterizing the Lewinsky charges as the latest in a long, organized, collaborative , supposedly loyal to Berlin. The "Brown Conspiracy" supposedly included anti-interventionist politicians like Senators Burton Wheeler and Gerald Nye, both of whom supported the America First movement - which Derounian called "a spearhead aimed at the heart of democracy."

FOR's Show Trial

The lurid charges made in Derounian's books tuned the atmosphere for a Sovietstyle purge of the administration's critics - something FDR had been seeking since coming to power.

In early 1942, Roosevelt ordered Attorney General Francis Biddle to prosecute journalists and activists who criticized the administration. "Biddle started receiving notes from FDR, attached to scurrilous attacks on the president's leadership, asking: 'What are you doing to stop this?'" writes historian Thomas Fleming in The New Dealers' War. FDR "was not much interested in the theory of sedition. Biddle later admitted. "He wanted this anti-war talk stopped."

Some of Roosevelt's more militant comrades literally wanted blood. A March 1942 meeting convened by the Overseas Writers Association, attended by several prominent members of FDR's "Brain Trust," singled out newspaper publishers Robert McCormick (Chicago Tribune) and Joe Patterson (the New York Daily News New York Daily News

Morning daily tabloid newspaper published in New York City. It was founded in 1919 by Joseph Medill Patterson and his cousin Robert McCormick as a subsidiary of the Tribune Co. of Chicago. The first successful tabloid-format newspaper in the U.S. ) as traitors. McCormick and Patterson loathed and condemned the Axis powers, and they had just as little use for Roosevelt, whom they perceptively denounced as a petty tyrant made of the same material as Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini.

The OWA meeting prefigured the "Two Minutes' Hate" later described in Orwell's 1984. "Roosevelt advisors ... applauded lustily such declarations as: The important thing is to put an end [to criticism of the Roosevelt administration] by whatever means may be necessary -- be as ruthless as the enemy," recorded one contemporary account. Referring specifically to McCormick, one speaker urged: "Get him on his income tax or the Mann Act. Hang him, shoot him or lock him up in a concentration camp."

The derogatory material about FDR's critics gathered by the ADL, AJC, and Derounian/Carlson eventually found its way into an indictment assembled by Justice Department attorney William Power Maloney. Attorney General Biddle had assigned Maloney to prosecute FDR's critics for treasonous sedition. In July 1942, after tantalizing the press with leaks suggesting that "isolationist" congressmen might be arraigned, Maloney announced the indictment of 28 writers and activists accused of Axis sympathies. When Maloney was found incompetent, Biddle replaced him with a more capable attorney named O. John Rogge.

But it didn't matter who was handling the sedition trial, since the public -- despite its understandable desire to defeat the Axis abroad, and root out its agents on the home front -- became nauseated by the spectacle of innocent, upright Americans being prosecuted for their political views. Notes Fleming, "Critics of FDR's sedition trial began referring to the prosecutor as 'Vishinsky,' a reference to the prosecutor in Stalin's Moscow show trials of the 1930s. After the presiding judge died of a heart attack, a mistrial was declared, and Biddle quietly closed the case -- FDR's ardent desire to imprison or perhaps even execute his critics notwithstanding.

When Joseph McCarthy's critics retail lurid stories of the supposed "reign of terror Reign of Terror, 1793–94, period of the French Revolution characterized by a wave of executions of presumed enemies of the state. Directed by the Committee of Public Safety, the Revolutionary government's Terror was essentially a war dictatorship, instituted to " conducted by the senator, their charges more accurately reflect FDR's methods to marginalize and harass his political opponents. Senator McCarthy, despite his occasional errors, legitimately used his congressional powers to expose Communist subversion in our government. Roosevelt, acting like a dictator, perverted the powers of his office to squelch criticism of his pro-Communist policies.

It says a great deal about the current state of our nation that McCarthy is vilified and FDR lionized.
Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”