WiF or Arsenal of Democracy

[acctingman]

Hello

I know this game, World in Flames looks pretty slick, but I've also been looking at Arsenal of Democracy. That game is out and it looks like what I'm looking for (which is a total ww2 game covering all theatre's).

Now, I know this game will cover all that too, but, I'm wondering how long I'd have to wait for this game to be on the shelf. I've read through posts and it looks like no one knows when this game is coming out.

Anyone here try Arsenal of Democracy? Did you like it?

Thanks

[micheljq]

I am far from convinced about Arsenal of Democracy, it's done using the engine of Hearts of Iron, which I dislike. I want a turn based when playing a strategic game on WW2. I disliked HoI for many reasons, first one was the annoying popup messages for the trade, hopefully they changed that with Arsenal, but I do not think I will try it.

It's a matter of taste those who loved HoI will probably like it. If you try it let me know how it is I am curious. [:)]

[ItBurns]

I agree with micheljq, I found the real time strategy route for a strategic level game to massively tedious.

As the Germans I was deep into Russia while defending against strategic bombing raids and my submarine anti shiping campaign. I wanted to turn the game's speed up so my attacks would occur in less than twenty minutes real time but if I did that the screen would be covered in spam from bombing raids and my defending fighters would have been erroded away to nothing. I was forced to micro-manage the fighters to save them and the factories while the exciting Russian campaign broke down to a tedium of waiting for the soldiers to leg it across the vast wide spaces.

It's a shame because as a turn based game it would be loads of fun. I enjoyed controling the design process and was proud that my Panzer II's carried 70MM guns. Fun things like that kept me going even through the tedium at least for a while.

[brian brian]

I would like to play a WE-Go (as opposed to an alternating You-Go-I-Go turn based game like WiF) game of WWII, that would have to be turn-based I guess, because playing in real-time is just kinda pointless at that level. A nice company/battalion level game, say modeled on the action in the Mel Gibson movie "We Were Soldiers" would be perfect for real-time. But for naval action I would prefer to play a simultaneous orders game...you send out your task forces with their orders, and you see what happens as the enemy task forces are out moving around too....

[sillyflower]

I've always liked HOI but HOI3 does not work well. New engine (for HOI series) which makes games absurdly ahistorical. AoD is based on HOI2 and better but lack the improvements that HOI3 genuinely has. I think sheer size and complexity makes it difficult for AI to be as challenging as I would have liked as I only ever play against AI. I have the same worry about this game.
HOI was probably my biggest disappointment ever -perhaps not least because it took weeks to get a patch which would actually let me play on a new high end alienware computer which I got in January this year, a few weeks after game had come out HOI had so much didn't work on release. Oh well, waiting now for WiTE.
Anyway I would suggest you try AoD. It is a good game but I can't compare with WIF as I had never heard of it before I saw this forum. II haven't played a boardgame for 15+ years now even tho' I started with Avalon hill's D-Day in about 1965. Those were the days. 'Static' German divisions really were static and could never, ever move in the basic game

[Markbell]

Hi
The game plays out in pseudo real time allowing the player to pause time progression and plan their stratagem with making decisions.The interface is sleek and streamlined providing tabs for each of different elements.The game features a myriad of campaigns ranging from short, on the order of a few months of game world time.Many of them are reworked from Heart of Iron2.The game is a multiplayer where you can play up to with 24 other players.

game

[jjdenver]

Very very different games. AoD and all of the HOI games have serious AI problems that prevents imo a good experience vs the AI in the Pacific and when the allies need to try Overlord.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Very very different games. AoD and all of the HOI games have serious AI problems that prevents imo a good experience vs the AI in the Pacific and when the allies need to try Overlord.

I have HoI one, and HoI II with the expansions. Those games were a big disappointment for me also. [:(]

edited for typo

[gridley]

My biggest disapointment with the HOI series was the AI as well. Don't get me wrong it was fun for a while playing against the AI, but it soon lost it's appeal because of the AI. Then my old WiF group started playing HoI Multiplayer, again fun for a while then we found it was just way too busy...Leaders, Tech, HUGE Armies, etc...

I am hoping that MWiF will be better on both fronts.

First, although WiF is an extremely complex game it is also very simple when broken down. I am hoping that this will help the MWiF AI. Compared to HoI it just seems that there will be a lot less the AI has to worry about. I know the AI will still have all the limitations that come with an AI, I just don't think it should be as bad as the HoI series that's all. Still, every time I see that "Simple Survey" thread that has AI at the top of the playlist I can't help but think most complaints, when the game is released, are going to be about the AI. Actually the AI will probably be 3rd on the complaints list for a while, behind all the old time Wifers complaining about the Interface and the WiF newbies complaing they don't understand the rules.

Now for MWiF Netplay, at the top of my "Simple Survey" playlist, this should be a blast. Except for the Asian map changes it looks like Steve has kept as close to WiF as possible. I think some things may take a little longer because of playing on a Computer as opposed to a Board, others should be faster. So the sittings should be about the same...although I will miss the social aspect of getting together. Still I can't wait for my group to start playing other groups around the world.

I really can't wait for this game to be released...so...ahh...hurry up, eh!!!

Just my 2 cents...By the way, do you think I'm right about the AI, I'm just a gamer not a programmer, so I really have no idea???

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: gridley

My biggest disapointment with the HOI series was the AI as well. Don't get me wrong it was fun for a while playing against the AI, but it soon lost it's appeal because of the AI. Then my old WiF group started playing HoI Multiplayer, again fun for a while then we found it was just way too busy...Leaders, Tech, HUGE Armies, etc...

I am hoping that MWiF will be better on both fronts.

First, although WiF is an extremely complex game it is also very simple when broken down. I am hoping that this will help the MWiF AI. Compared to HoI it just seems that there will be a lot less the AI has to worry about. I know the AI will still have all the limitations that come with an AI, I just don't think it should be as bad as the HoI series that's all. Still, every time I see that "Simple Survey" thread that has AI at the top of the playlist I can't help but think most complaints, when the game is released, are going to be about the AI. Actually the AI will probably be 3rd on the complaints list for a while, behind all the old time Wifers complaining about the Interface and the WiF newbies complaing they don't understand the rules.

Now for MWiF Netplay, at the top of my "Simple Survey" playlist, this should be a blast. Except for the Asian map changes it looks like Steve has kept as close to WiF as possible. I think some things may take a little longer because of playing on a Computer as opposed to a Board, others should be faster. So the sittings should be about the same...although I will miss the social aspect of getting together. Still I can't wait for my group to start playing other groups around the world.

I really can't wait for this game to be released...so...ahh...hurry up, eh!!!

Just my 2 cents...By the way, do you think I'm right about the AI, I'm just a gamer not a programmer, so I really have no idea???

I have high hopes for the AIO. But if I didn't, would you want me working on it?[:D]

MWIF should play much faster than WIF over-the-board. Here are a few reasons that I say that with confidence:

1 - No sorting through or searching for counters (during setup, annual additions, placing reserves, setting up minors, etc.).
2 - No calculating the odds for any combat (land, air, or sea).
3 - No searching for which units can move during any subphase of an air phase.
4 - No checking to see who controls which hex/resource.
5 - No checking for supply.
6 - No need to figure out which phase/subphase of the game comes next.
7 - No checking and keeping track of available air missions, land moves, naval moves, or land combats.
8 - No figuring out what the weather is in a hex.
9 - No checking for cooperation between units.
10 - No checking for Foreign Troop Commitment restrictions.
11 - No checking for exceeding the range of air and naval units.
.
.
.
100 - No checking to see if you're playing the rules correctly.[:D]

Yes, the comraderie will be mostly lost. But I'll hazard a guess that the playing time will be 1/4 or maybe 1/5 of an over-the-board game. For instance, can you imagine setting up all major powers for the Global War scenario, with zero preparation before hand, in a half hour or less? That's possible because Saved Setups let you place all the CW convoys and named ships with a single mouse click.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: gridley

My biggest disapointment with the HOI series was the AI as well. Don't get me wrong it was fun for a while playing against the AI, but it soon lost it's appeal because of the AI. Then my old WiF group started playing HoI Multiplayer, again fun for a while then we found it was just way too busy...Leaders, Tech, HUGE Armies, etc...

I am hoping that MWiF will be better on both fronts.

First, although WiF is an extremely complex game it is also very simple when broken down. I am hoping that this will help the MWiF AI. Compared to HoI it just seems that there will be a lot less the AI has to worry about. I know the AI will still have all the limitations that come with an AI, I just don't think it should be as bad as the HoI series that's all. Still, every time I see that "Simple Survey" thread that has AI at the top of the playlist I can't help but think most complaints, when the game is released, are going to be about the AI. Actually the AI will probably be 3rd on the complaints list for a while, behind all the old time Wifers complaining about the Interface and the WiF newbies complaing they don't understand the rules.

Now for MWiF Netplay, at the top of my "Simple Survey" playlist, this should be a blast. Except for the Asian map changes it looks like Steve has kept as close to WiF as possible. I think some things may take a little longer because of playing on a Computer as opposed to a Board, others should be faster. So the sittings should be about the same...although I will miss the social aspect of getting together. Still I can't wait for my group to start playing other groups around the world.

I really can't wait for this game to be released...so...ahh...hurry up, eh!!!

Just my 2 cents...By the way, do you think I'm right about the AI, I'm just a gamer not a programmer, so I really have no idea???

I have high hopes for the AIO. But if I didn't, would you want me working on it?[:D]

MWIF should play much faster than WIF over-the-board. Here are a few reasons that I say that with confidence:

1 - No sorting through or searching for counters (during setup, annual additions, placing reserves, setting up minors, etc.).
2 - No calculating the odds for any combat (land, air, or sea).
3 - No searching for which units can move during any subphase of an air phase.
4 - No checking to see who controls which hex/resource.
5 - No checking for supply.
6 - No need to figure out which phase/subphase of the game comes next.
7 - No checking and keeping track of available air missions, land moves, naval moves, or land combats.
8 - No figuring out what the weather is in a hex.
9 - No checking for cooperation between units.
10 - No checking for Foreign Troop Commitment restrictions.
11 - No checking for exceeding the range of air and naval units.
.
.
.
100 - No checking to see if you're playing the rules correctly.[:D]

Yes, the comraderie will be mostly lost. But I'll hazard a guess that the playing time will be 1/4 or maybe 1/5 of an over-the-board game. For instance, can you imagine setting up all major powers for the Global War scenario, with zero preparation before hand, in a half hour or less? That's possible because Saved Setups let you place all the CW convoys and named ships with a single mouse click.

My biggest disapointment with the HOI series was the AI as well. Don't get me wrong it was fun for a while playing against the AI, but it soon lost it's appeal because of the AI. Then my old WiF group started playing HoI Multiplayer, again fun for a while then we found it was just way too busy...Leaders, Tech, HUGE Armies, etc...

You're forgetting ultra important step 11
"Realizing you've forgotten or messed up one of the above, and arguing about how you want to handle things now that it's too late to easily take the actions back."

[micheljq]

No arguying about the rules I like that. Hours of time saved. It's hardcoded in the program dude, complain or not it's the rules so shut up and play. Rules are the same for everyone, etc. I would like to say that. [:D]

[Cheesehead]

My biggest problem with the HoI series (AoD included) is that you can only play one country and that the AI controls your Allies was well as your enemies. My last game of HoI2 I played the US and was managing on my own quite nicely for a while. But then I invaded France and had established a solid beachhead in Brittany. The British had dozens of divisions, transport and air resources stacked up along the southern coast of England. I needed their help to break out. They did nothing. Just sat ont their side of the channel without any activity. I even switched sides (to Britain) temporarily to get their invasion moving but as soon as I re-entered the game as the US they withdrew their units from France and went BACK TO ENGLAND! I also tried the function where you can take over the military assets of an Ally, but this was so fraught with interface/operational problems that this didn't work, either. I haven't touched the game since.

cheers

John

[MilRevKo]

To totally different games.

Buy...both and have fun.

[CSSS]

I agree to ALL Shannons points I have played WIF since the first edition, but the time the Forth edition was out my friend and I would make long didtance call to Harry Roland in Austrialia from Texas to clarify rules! To this day Harry remembers the two Texas players who called him![;)]

[MilRevKo]

The set up time for WIF was part of the experiance. It is not a race. To play the game, even MWIF is an experiance.

Remember Zen...

Even the set up for MWIF will take time. And, as always it it the best gereral that make the least mistakes (for all mistakes will be made)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: MilRevKo

The set up time for WIF was part of the experiance. It is not a race. To play the game, even MWIF is an experiance.

Remember Zen...

Even the set up for MWIF will take time. And, as always it it the best gereral that make the least mistakes (for all mistakes will be made)

Hmm. I lived in South Philly for 26 years. My sister lives in Paoli and my brother on South Street.
===
When you say that set up was part of the experience, MWIF offers some of the same - if you want to spend the time. For example:

1 - Scroll over the entire world map at highest zoom level (8), with all the historical and/or geographical locations identified by Patrice. For each of the resource icons, Patrice (with the help of others) has added a label identifying which wartime resource the hex produced.

2 - Examine the units by country, unit type, year of arrival, etc. or by any combination of the same. The filter form lets you see any subset that piques your interest.

3 - Read the historical descriptions of each unit, their armament, where they fought, and an anecdote for each. There are thousands of these descriptions compiled by a couple dozen contributors (Warspite21 continues to work hard on the naval writeups definitive).

4 - Read through the Players Manual to understand the rules better.[:D][:D][:D]

[RJL5188]

i have HOI3...it has its good points and its bad...

land combat is pretty darn good...

naval and air combat...is a little weak but they keep on improving it with every patch...

but i do play it a lot as well...

if u havent tried war in the pacific or war in the east...give those games a try

best strategical games on both theaters you will find...

that is until WIF is finally done...

cant wait for WIF

[Moltrey]

Just an update for those interested in Arsenal of Democracy (aka HoI2+++).

I popped over to the AoD forums recently and noted that the CORE modding group has joined forces with AoD's creators BL-Logic. I had not seen a latest update post from either team leader so I asked about the status of AoD 1.6.
Just last night they both responded with AoD 1.6 in beta testing and CORE .50 for AoD the same. I think it may very well be the "best of all worlds" with these two crews putting their heads together on improving AoD and CORE at the same time. CORE will remain a mod- it won't be mandatory for AoD in any way, but the CORE guys are helping to fine tune AoD 1.6.

I have found AoD a nice little diversion that is starting to come into its own, so give it a shot. I think it goes on sale fairly regularly on Impulse if you are interested.

Still, looking forward very much to WiF. Glad to see so much progress here. Kudos guys!