motorized support-just an encumbrance?

[spence]

There really ought to be some supply advantage to motorized support.

The British motorized their army between the wars after analysis of their World War I experience showed that they had shipped more tons of horse fodder to France than tons of ammunition. Gasoline-powered transport was much more efficient than horse drawn transport so long as one had enough gasoline (that was the rub for Russia, China, Japan and the Axis in general).

Motor transport was/is the major reason the US and UK generals could/can very often substitute a whole bunch of ammunition for a whole bunch of soldiers.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity

Road movement is definitely limited by nationality. See page 185 of the manual, which says "The Allies can utilize Strategic OpMode on rail lines and Main Roads. The Japanese are limited to using Strategic OpMode on rail lines."

However, according to another thread (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2470587) the Russians and Chinese cannot utilise strategic road movement either, the reason being that excess transport vehicles were not available in those nations. Although also seems it is limited to certain areas as well, eg Australia and the US, which might explain the Chinese and Russians, but it didn't come up with a definitive answer as to where.

I didn't check Russians or Chinese. I was reacting to my earlier statement that only the US, UK, and Aussies have it. The Indians do as well.

I never consider the Japanese in my statements on anything. I should though.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

My post was commenting only on the query regarding motorized support affecting movement rates.

I reread your and my posts, and I think I was unclear that I understood this. I munged in nationality. The bottom-line is motorized support gets you no mobility (and I was surprised, as I'd thought it did.) The nationality issue is a sideline.

[Smeulders]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It's not nationality, it's road type.

It's both. Some nationalities can use strat move on major (grey) roads.

Bingo. If you know where to look, you can prove this on turn 1. The Burma bases South of Moulmein are garrisoned with a mix of British and Commonwealth units. The British units can strat move North, while the Commonwealth units are stuck using normal movement.(Note you can put the Commonwealth guys in Strat mode, however, that is due to the fact they are in a port, not due to the roads)

[Misconduct]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It's not nationality, it's road type.

It's both. Some nationalities can use strat move on major (grey) roads.

Bingo. If you know where to look, you can prove this on turn 1. The Burma bases South of Moulmein are garrisoned with a mix of British and Commonwealth units. The British units can strat move North, while the Commonwealth units are stuck using normal movement.(Note you can put the Commonwealth guys in Strat mode, however, that is due to the fact they are in a port, not due to the roads)

What I've been trying to say earlier, some allied units can, I can't quite figure out why exactly or how much motorized support units are needed. I only wish the Japanese invested in just a "few" motorized units, so far I only have a few independant Tank units mostly Recon, and a Tank Regiment.

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

I can't quite figure out why exactly or how much motorized support units are needed

Motorized support has nothing to do with it. All units of some nationalities (US, Brit, Oz, NZ) can strat move on major roads.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

I can't quite figure out why exactly or how much motorized support units are needed

Motorized support has nothing to do with it. All units of some nationalities (US, Brit, Oz, NZ) can strat move on major roads.

This is true. However, all units of other nationalities can't. I suspect that this was an umbrella assumption during development--western industrialized nations would get some "invisible" motorized capability, but the devices themselves would be chrome. Other nations--like Japan--never get the capability, even though they had the industrial capability to manufacture trucks. Other nations--like the USSR-didn't have it in 1941, and could have/should have had it in 1945, due to Lend-Lease. However, they might not have had it in Siberia, while they had tens of thousands of Detroit's finest trucks on the Eastern Front.

I don't know why Indian units have it. I suppose there was leak over from the British, or at least that was the design assumption in the game. I don't have any surviving Dutch units in any base not on a RR, so I can't easily test them without launching a new game. Certainly many of the DEI units have motorized devices, such as artillery prime movers, but I don't know if they get the road bonus. There are few areas in their territory not on RRs in any case.

[crsutton]

Well, this gets back to my original post. If motorized support does not give any benefit other than generic support then it actually is just a hinderance due to the problems moving it by air or sea. So something that should actually be a very good thing for the Allies (lots and lots of trucks) may actually just be an encumbrance in the game. Am I off the mark here?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, this gets back to my original post. If motorized support does not give any benefit other than generic support then it actually is just a hinderance due to the problems moving it by air or sea. So something that should actually be a very good thing for the Allies (lots and lots of trucks) may actually just be an encumbrance in the game. Am I off the mark here?

Unless a dev says otherwise it looks like there's no difference in function, but a difference in loading.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

As far as I know support squads and motorized support squads provide exactly the same benefits. Motorized support squads are (as you no doubt have found out!) more difficult to move around. They put in the motorized support squads because they were there IRL. We did ask for accuracy! I suppose you could always make a mod where motorized support was basically a clone of support so you wouldn't have to change all the LCU that have MS.

yeah, but when asking for accuracy then motorized support should give you some benefit over support squads, no? Instead this thread seems to come up with the conclusion that having motorized support actually is a disadvantage. [&:]

[witpqs]

US units get lots of benefits and lots of stuff is abstracted. If they had to make the code so it really replicated the whole ecosystem that just continues to increase the size, complexity, cost, difficulty, chance or errors, and so on and so on.

It's a small thing, guys. Just go with it.

[Andy Mac]

Support = Motorised support for all actual in game functions apart from loading unloading and unit size.
 
Allied units had more teeth than tail than a japanese unit which makes them bulkier to transport especially units returning from the ME or set up to fight a European or Desert War.
 
CW and US Divs at start tend to be heavy with motor support thatsa  PITA to move its a deliberate rep of one of the differences between allied and japanese units.
 
Over time TOE upgrages steadilly "junglify" and lighten up the proportion of support to mot support
 
take 17th Indian Div
 
starts with c 300 support and 133 mot support in its under equipped but basically desert TOE (actually its short of guns so had it been committed tot he desert it would have picked up another 2 retgts of field arty etc so its mot support would have been higher)
 
it moves to full out animal pack on a Bde TOE so it moves to 380 supp 0 mot support in mid 42
 
it then basically becomes a lighter weight ord Ind Inf Div in 43 with 500 ord support and 132 mot support.
 
Then in 45 it turns into a true motorised div again with 300 mot support and 350 ord support.
 
Thats probably the single most weird TOE of any unit because of the multiple roles the Div performed -
 
1. Emergancy undertrained and equipped unit
2. Trial for all out animal pack
3. Pukka trained normal inf div
4. Motorised Div
 
A simpler example is 5th Indian Div
 
when it returns from the Middle East its vehicle heavy with 410 support and 300+ Mot support
 
it slims down when it reorganises its toe wo have 500 support and 200 mot support.
 
Last example then I will shut up
 
6th Aus Div
 
Returning from the ME has 386 support 300+ mot support
when it slims down for jungle duty 480 support 126 mot support.
 
Andy
 

[morganbj]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Allied units had more teeth than tail than a japanese unit

Really. I thought that it was just the opposite. I thought the Allies had more REMFS than the Japanese.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Allied units had more teeth than tail than a japanese unit

Really. I thought that it was just the opposite. I thought the Allies had more REMFS than the Japanese.

I think he just typed it backwards.

[Andy Mac]

yup typo

[Bullwinkle58]

Thanks for the explaination and confirmation, Andy.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Support = Motorised support for all actual in game functions apart from loading unloading and unit size.

Allied units had more teeth than tail than a japanese unit which makes them bulkier to transport especially units returning from the ME or set up to fight a European or Desert War.

CW and US Divs at start tend to be heavy with motor support thatsa  PITA to move its a deliberate rep of one of the differences between allied and japanese units.

Over time TOE upgrages steadilly "junglify" and lighten up the proportion of support to mot support

take 17th Indian Div

starts with c 300 support and 133 mot support in its under equipped but basically desert TOE (actually its short of guns so had it been committed tot he desert it would have picked up another 2 retgts of field arty etc so its mot support would have been higher)

it moves to full out animal pack on a Bde TOE so it moves to 380 supp 0 mot support in mid 42

it then basically becomes a lighter weight ord Ind Inf Div in 43 with 500 ord support and 132 mot support.

Then in 45 it turns into a true motorised div again with 300 mot support and 350 ord support.

Thats probably the single most weird TOE of any unit because of the multiple roles the Div performed -

1. Emergancy undertrained and equipped unit
2. Trial for all out animal pack
3. Pukka trained normal inf div
4. Motorised Div

A simpler example is 5th Indian Div

when it returns from the Middle East its vehicle heavy with 410 support and 300+ Mot support

it slims down when it reorganises its toe wo have 500 support and 200 mot support.

Last example then I will shut up

6th Aus Div

Returning from the ME has 386 support 300+ mot support
when it slims down for jungle duty 480 support 126 mot support.

Andy

Great explanation, Andy. I have one question about the changing TOE's. I was under the impression that if an LCU had x number of a device in the unit and the TOE called for less, or changed to less, that the LCU would keep those now "excess" devices. If this holds true, when the Motorized Support numbers in the TOE drop, do we have to wait for the unit to lose some of those devices through combat, etc, before they become "slimmer"?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: USS America
Great explanation, Andy. I have one question about the changing TOE's. I was under the impression that if an LCU had x number of a device in the unit and the TOE called for less, or changed to less, that the LCU would keep those now "excess" devices. If this holds true, when the Motorized Support numbers in the TOE drop, do we have to wait for the unit to lose some of those devices through combat, etc, before they become "slimmer"?

There's two cases to consider where you might get excess devices, Mike, one is 'rebuilding' a unit from constituent parts, the other is a straight forward TOE update. Things happen a teensy bit different in the two cases. If Andy don't beat me to it, I'll check the design notes and lay out the rules.

Ciao.

[Andy Mac]

No worries as John says two different sets of rules
 
When a TOE upgrade happens and say a unit gains an Indian Bn but loses a Brit Bn which happens to a lot of Indian Units as the Indianisation goes on of the Indian Army
 
So say it has 7 x Indian Bns (252 Squads) and 2 x Brit Bns (72 Squads)
 
If the new TOE is 8 x Indian Bns (288 Squads) and 1 x Brit Bns (36 Squads)
 
Then when the TOE upgrades the unit hands back 36 Brit Squads to the pool for redeployment elsewhere and will need to draw an additional 36 Indian Squads to fill up to its TOE
 
If the new TOE rather than having 0 x Brit Squads does not mention Brit Squads at all i.e. they are not set to a lower level or zero then those devices become overstrengh squads at the bottom of the TOE.
 
So lets say the new TOE says 324 Indian Squads and 0 Brit Squads then 72 in the example above would return to the pool.
 
If the new TOE says 324 Indian Squads and doesnt mention Brit Squads at all i.e. rather than having a line item in the TOE set to 0 its just not mentioned then in that case the Squads would become over TOE 'extra devices' and would only dissappear as a result of combat so that unit would be temproarily overstrength.
 
 
 
Andy
 

[JWE]

That was as clear as the sound of the Liberty Bell. Nice one Andy.

Only other thing worth mentioning is that the relative proportion of Sup to MotSup defines how ‘hard’ or how 'easy' a particular unit will load. MotSup is both a Vehicle type Device and a Non-Troop Device with load cost > 9, so will load as Heavy Equipment at 3x its nominal LC. This represents the greater “bulk” of an Allied support echelon. Otherwise, Sup and MotSup function identically. The greater “tail” capabilities of many Allied units vis a vis Japan is accounted for in the relative ratios of total support devices (Sup and MotSup) to combat devices.

So MotSup is very important in determining transportability of various units.