Hello you hard-core pbem gamers.
Will it be worthwhile to design some scenarios expressly for pbem? I have an idea that I think may facilitate setting up H2H or pbem type battles on custom maps.
If some of you would like to see this, indicate so right here on this thread. If there is interest, I will make a proto-type and post it so you guys can evaluate the thing and let me know if I should proceed.
A lack response here will be interpreted as a "no" vote.
The prototype battle will be modest in size to facilitate testing.
PBEM Scenarios
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
I think it's a great idea! 
Will be interesting to see what this new "facility" is, a software tool perhaps? I think it should be possible to largely replace the existing clunky battle setup front-end. You basically just need a routine to write .DAT files. Not that I'm volunteering ...
Anyway good luck and if you need some help testing I'll be glad to oblige
Will be interesting to see what this new "facility" is, a software tool perhaps? I think it should be possible to largely replace the existing clunky battle setup front-end. You basically just need a routine to write .DAT files. Not that I'm volunteering ...
Anyway good luck and if you need some help testing I'll be glad to oblige
OK, here is the first prototype pbem battle.
This one is made for the H2H mod so will not work in regular SPWAW.
But you can still load it up in the regular version and examine it in the scenario editor.
Things to look for:
1. The terrain - have you ever wished for plenty of cover that did not either look bad or mess up visibility? Float your mouse over what appears to be clear hexes on and off the hills. Note that almost every hex has some sort of cover in it.
2. The forces are very equally matched - the German side has more points spent but the Soviets have more men. But I tried to deploy them so neither side will get an advantage.
3. In this particular battle, the forces on-board represent a "core" force. But there are reinforcements available for both sides to purchase - about 2000 points worth. They can be anything that the two players agree to.
4. Both sides have 2 batteries of off-board artillery. One battery of light howitzers and another battery of 81/82mm mortars.
5. Both sides have a set of rifle pits to screen their turf.
6. I swapped the 50mm German light mortars for a section of 81mm mortars with ammo supply. In exchange, the Soviet side gets 2 sections of their 50mm mortars with ammo supply.
7. Both sides have objectives set for the on-board force.
I invite you to look it over and give me some guidance. I made this the way I would have liked a pbem to be back when I played such things. I also had on-line play in mind for this.
The best way to purchase the reinforcements is to purchase about 1/2 at a time over a couple of turns. Since they arrive in the same hex, it is easier to deal with them in smaller doses.
Also, I recommend a "no fire zone" be established so some one doesn't begin firing at his opponents reinforcement hex.
When reinforcements are purchased, 20 percent of the purchase price is immediately given over to the opponent. But there are only 2000 points so it doesn't amount to many points.
Visibility is set to 50 so the August 1942 Tigers are a threat.
With your help, I'll get a working model with any changes that are needed.
Crank it up, look it over, and even do a 2-3 turn test and we'll go from there.
Standing by waiting for the jury to come in.
This one is made for the H2H mod so will not work in regular SPWAW.
But you can still load it up in the regular version and examine it in the scenario editor.
Things to look for:
1. The terrain - have you ever wished for plenty of cover that did not either look bad or mess up visibility? Float your mouse over what appears to be clear hexes on and off the hills. Note that almost every hex has some sort of cover in it.
2. The forces are very equally matched - the German side has more points spent but the Soviets have more men. But I tried to deploy them so neither side will get an advantage.
3. In this particular battle, the forces on-board represent a "core" force. But there are reinforcements available for both sides to purchase - about 2000 points worth. They can be anything that the two players agree to.
4. Both sides have 2 batteries of off-board artillery. One battery of light howitzers and another battery of 81/82mm mortars.
5. Both sides have a set of rifle pits to screen their turf.
6. I swapped the 50mm German light mortars for a section of 81mm mortars with ammo supply. In exchange, the Soviet side gets 2 sections of their 50mm mortars with ammo supply.
7. Both sides have objectives set for the on-board force.
I invite you to look it over and give me some guidance. I made this the way I would have liked a pbem to be back when I played such things. I also had on-line play in mind for this.
The best way to purchase the reinforcements is to purchase about 1/2 at a time over a couple of turns. Since they arrive in the same hex, it is easier to deal with them in smaller doses.
Also, I recommend a "no fire zone" be established so some one doesn't begin firing at his opponents reinforcement hex.
When reinforcements are purchased, 20 percent of the purchase price is immediately given over to the opponent. But there are only 2000 points so it doesn't amount to many points.
Visibility is set to 50 so the August 1942 Tigers are a threat.
With your help, I'll get a working model with any changes that are needed.
Crank it up, look it over, and even do a 2-3 turn test and we'll go from there.
Standing by waiting for the jury to come in.
- Attachments
-
- pbemtestscen110.zip
- (38.01 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
I like the idea. The player gets a core force of a standard infantry company plus some arty and then can select whatever armour or other "sexy" stuff they want. I also like the map with all its rough spaces.
Dumb question though, how do you make a scenario with reinforcement points? I always just get 0.
A couple of comments:
I think the arty is a bit too much and would suggest dropping either the off-board or on-board mortars (pref on-board). If players want more arty then they can pay for it
The victory hex values might need increasing to make them decisive.
Why do the Soviets have recon and the Germans not?
I'm really not sure about the mines and rifle pits as a standard feature.
Anyway it's definitely worth a tryout , rbrunsman are you there?
Dumb question though, how do you make a scenario with reinforcement points? I always just get 0.
A couple of comments:
I think the arty is a bit too much and would suggest dropping either the off-board or on-board mortars (pref on-board). If players want more arty then they can pay for it
The victory hex values might need increasing to make them decisive.
Why do the Soviets have recon and the Germans not?
I'm really not sure about the mines and rifle pits as a standard feature.
Anyway it's definitely worth a tryout , rbrunsman are you there?
Squirmer:
This is the sort of input I was seeking.
Some response:
I attempted to balance the sides somewhat on the basis of points. The Germans had more points so I added some recon to the Soviets pretty much as I might do if I were purchasing and had a few points left.
The v-hex values are very easy to change - but until the battle is played, it won't be known what the value should be. I played against myself for several turns to try to get a feel for some of this but what is needed is a final score.
The rifle pits seemed like an inexpensive way to put up a somewhat effective screen without creating a wall of flesh. Ditto the few land mines. Neither of these can be added by the player. Easy to delete.
I didn't think that two batteries would be excessive especially since the off-board mortars are of limited range and can only reach a portion of the playing area. Of course, 75mm hotwitzers can reach anywhere but the enemy is in good cover.
In experimenting with this, it seems that some changes may be in order with respect to the map. With breakdowns turned on and driving fast, it seemed that I should "fix" the trails so they are not quite so likely to cause breakdowns.
So if someone plays the thing - I hung around on the Combat Net forum yesterday looking for someone to beat me up- I will gain enough information to make adjustments.
Once I know a bit more about what is wanted, it will be easy to produce additionals.
In experimenting, I was able to switch maps very quickly and use the same "core" force on a new map and quickly make changes resulting in an entirely new scenario in a matter of minutes (once I had a map to use).
One last thing is it seemed that the first 3-4 turns are devoid of action so I was thinking perhaps add some snipers and shift things forward so some combat is likely within 2 turns.
This is the sort of input I was seeking.
Some response:
I attempted to balance the sides somewhat on the basis of points. The Germans had more points so I added some recon to the Soviets pretty much as I might do if I were purchasing and had a few points left.
The v-hex values are very easy to change - but until the battle is played, it won't be known what the value should be. I played against myself for several turns to try to get a feel for some of this but what is needed is a final score.
The rifle pits seemed like an inexpensive way to put up a somewhat effective screen without creating a wall of flesh. Ditto the few land mines. Neither of these can be added by the player. Easy to delete.
I didn't think that two batteries would be excessive especially since the off-board mortars are of limited range and can only reach a portion of the playing area. Of course, 75mm hotwitzers can reach anywhere but the enemy is in good cover.
In experimenting with this, it seems that some changes may be in order with respect to the map. With breakdowns turned on and driving fast, it seemed that I should "fix" the trails so they are not quite so likely to cause breakdowns.
So if someone plays the thing - I hung around on the Combat Net forum yesterday looking for someone to beat me up- I will gain enough information to make adjustments.
Once I know a bit more about what is wanted, it will be easy to produce additionals.
In experimenting, I was able to switch maps very quickly and use the same "core" force on a new map and quickly make changes resulting in an entirely new scenario in a matter of minutes (once I had a map to use).
One last thing is it seemed that the first 3-4 turns are devoid of action so I was thinking perhaps add some snipers and shift things forward so some combat is likely within 2 turns.
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Gary Tatro
- Posts: 1200
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: MA, US
Redleg
I like the idea of PBEM senarios. I think it would be great to have some around and I would be very willing to play test them for you. Here is my suggestions though because I have played a few senarios via PBEM.
1) The problem with many senarios is that if they are to static, they are a one shot things. Played once you know where everything is and the person defending does not have the option to enable a mobile defense. Thus he can not move his forces around or if he does is totally wiped out.
2) I love historical accuacy. It really adds an eliment to the game. But it can be very boring. I would suggest designing senarios that are in the later years. Mid 1941-1945. If I am the Russians attacking the Rumanians in 1940, I am going to get bored really quick as I move my infantry forward three hexes, then rally them after they are hit with artillary, watch my rally fail then watch them retreat, then next turn do it all over again. Same for the Rumanians.
3) You need to give me a good combined force that has some static elements and some mobil elements and some elite units. Not all elite just some I can use as a mobil reserve to expoit weeknesses or lead my attack. Most PBEM's take the best they can buy. When facing the Germans you see all SS or Falshjager (spelling), Panthers and Tigers. USA Rangers and M4's. I do the same thing and everyone is on even ground. (well sort of the veterans know what is the best to buy)
4) Don't make them too big. Most PBEM games are in the range of 11k (very large) to 4k (small). I like them all, but from experience deploying on a 11K battle takes me forever(2-3 hours) just to deploy. I prefer medium sized games of 6k to 9k, this allows you to buy some special troops for reserve and set up a good balanced battle group.
5) From my experience I have noticed that some players have armor tendancies and some players have infantry tendancies. IE they are better with an armor force or better with an infantry force. Once you have set up a senario you could make a couple of varients with the units supplied. Something like Senario 1 is designed for a German armor force attacking and a Russian infantry force defending. Now I am not saying make it all armor and all infantry, more like an armor force with infantry support and a infantry force with armor support. I tend to use a formula like 1 or 2 platoons of armor for every two companies of infantry for my infantry force and 1 company of infantry for every company of armor for my armor force. (But I am definetly an infantry man) Also the infantry need to have some sort of transport. Does not need to be halftracks. (Trucks work)
6) One thing I have notices from playing a number of senarios is the total lack of RECON units. In my estimation I purchase about 5-10% of my force in recon units. A combination of vehicles and infantry (but mostly infantry since a recon unit can ride on almost anything) When I am playing the USA it is more like 50-60% (most US halftracks are recon units and all the Rangers are.
7) Finally if you can set it up so that the players can call their own reinforcements this gives the PBEM'er some freedom to purchase the units he likes. At a cost yes but still gives them some additional leverage.
Hope my suggestions were helpful. I would love to see some PBEM senarios. Thank you ahead of time.
1) The problem with many senarios is that if they are to static, they are a one shot things. Played once you know where everything is and the person defending does not have the option to enable a mobile defense. Thus he can not move his forces around or if he does is totally wiped out.
2) I love historical accuacy. It really adds an eliment to the game. But it can be very boring. I would suggest designing senarios that are in the later years. Mid 1941-1945. If I am the Russians attacking the Rumanians in 1940, I am going to get bored really quick as I move my infantry forward three hexes, then rally them after they are hit with artillary, watch my rally fail then watch them retreat, then next turn do it all over again. Same for the Rumanians.
3) You need to give me a good combined force that has some static elements and some mobil elements and some elite units. Not all elite just some I can use as a mobil reserve to expoit weeknesses or lead my attack. Most PBEM's take the best they can buy. When facing the Germans you see all SS or Falshjager (spelling), Panthers and Tigers. USA Rangers and M4's. I do the same thing and everyone is on even ground. (well sort of the veterans know what is the best to buy)
4) Don't make them too big. Most PBEM games are in the range of 11k (very large) to 4k (small). I like them all, but from experience deploying on a 11K battle takes me forever(2-3 hours) just to deploy. I prefer medium sized games of 6k to 9k, this allows you to buy some special troops for reserve and set up a good balanced battle group.
5) From my experience I have noticed that some players have armor tendancies and some players have infantry tendancies. IE they are better with an armor force or better with an infantry force. Once you have set up a senario you could make a couple of varients with the units supplied. Something like Senario 1 is designed for a German armor force attacking and a Russian infantry force defending. Now I am not saying make it all armor and all infantry, more like an armor force with infantry support and a infantry force with armor support. I tend to use a formula like 1 or 2 platoons of armor for every two companies of infantry for my infantry force and 1 company of infantry for every company of armor for my armor force. (But I am definetly an infantry man) Also the infantry need to have some sort of transport. Does not need to be halftracks. (Trucks work)
6) One thing I have notices from playing a number of senarios is the total lack of RECON units. In my estimation I purchase about 5-10% of my force in recon units. A combination of vehicles and infantry (but mostly infantry since a recon unit can ride on almost anything) When I am playing the USA it is more like 50-60% (most US halftracks are recon units and all the Rangers are.
7) Finally if you can set it up so that the players can call their own reinforcements this gives the PBEM'er some freedom to purchase the units he likes. At a cost yes but still gives them some additional leverage.
Hope my suggestions were helpful. I would love to see some PBEM senarios. Thank you ahead of time.
"Are you going to do something or just stand there and bleed"
How about map size? Any ideas about how many points per map size?
I used a reinforced company core force with 2000 on the medium map as a starting point.
When I tinkered with it, I had 2 batteries of Stugs and some mech grenadiers for the Germans. For the Soviets, I purchased a company of light tanks and several platoons of T34s. To me, that seemed to be about the max for the medium map. Even though Early Tigers were listed as available in Aug 42, they weren't there to purchase so perhaps the date should be changed to Sept or where ever the Tigers are hidden.
Once you guys give me guidance, I will produce 2 - 3 different scenarios based on your ideas. Then variants to change the year, Nations, maps will be very quick and easy to make.
First, one working prototype that seems acceptable is needed; then 2-3 of differing sizes.
Does anyone have pbem interest in assaults, delays, river crossings?
For personal interests, I am more interested in small battles suitable for on-line play but am willing to design some for pbem if it looks like they will be played.
I used a reinforced company core force with 2000 on the medium map as a starting point.
When I tinkered with it, I had 2 batteries of Stugs and some mech grenadiers for the Germans. For the Soviets, I purchased a company of light tanks and several platoons of T34s. To me, that seemed to be about the max for the medium map. Even though Early Tigers were listed as available in Aug 42, they weren't there to purchase so perhaps the date should be changed to Sept or where ever the Tigers are hidden.
Once you guys give me guidance, I will produce 2 - 3 different scenarios based on your ideas. Then variants to change the year, Nations, maps will be very quick and easy to make.
First, one working prototype that seems acceptable is needed; then 2-3 of differing sizes.
Does anyone have pbem interest in assaults, delays, river crossings?
For personal interests, I am more interested in small battles suitable for on-line play but am willing to design some for pbem if it looks like they will be played.
-
Gary Tatro
- Posts: 1200
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: MA, US
From my experience
I generally go with something like this.
Points
2000-4000 = Small map
4000-6500 = Medium map
6500-10000 = Large map
10K + = Verly Large Map
If you are designing for online play I would stick to small games. Even small games take 4-6 hours to play on line and many people just do not have that amount of time to devote in one sitting.
I personally think that delays and advances would be the best for senarios. But I must say that it is hard to put up a good delay in a small game and very difficult to defend vs an assualt due to the point difference. IMO
I once did a survey on what engagement of games people liked to play in PBEM and it came out predominatly Meeting engagements.
Again I hope my suggestions are helpful and thank you.
Points
2000-4000 = Small map
4000-6500 = Medium map
6500-10000 = Large map
10K + = Verly Large Map
If you are designing for online play I would stick to small games. Even small games take 4-6 hours to play on line and many people just do not have that amount of time to devote in one sitting.
I personally think that delays and advances would be the best for senarios. But I must say that it is hard to put up a good delay in a small game and very difficult to defend vs an assualt due to the point difference. IMO
I once did a survey on what engagement of games people liked to play in PBEM and it came out predominatly Meeting engagements.
Again I hope my suggestions are helpful and thank you.
"Are you going to do something or just stand there and bleed"
Online test
Redleg.
If you want to do an online test let me know when you'll be on Combat Net and I'll drop by (before 7pm EST since I am in the UK).
I've never played online but would definitely like to try it ...
If you want to do an online test let me know when you'll be on Combat Net and I'll drop by (before 7pm EST since I am in the UK).
I've never played online but would definitely like to try it ...
Here's a revision based upon my testing and comments.
Some recon given to German
Date changed to make Tigers available
V-hex values and type altered.
Have fun.
Squirmer - I will try to meet you there on the Combat Net this afternoon.
Gary: I suppose 90% of all pbem I ever did were of the 4-6000 variety a large map. 90% were also meeting engagements (ironic since meeting engagements seldom took place).
I will start with 2-3 of these and switch nations and maps and see how they are recieved and go from there. After this is finished.
Some recon given to German
Date changed to make Tigers available
V-hex values and type altered.
Have fun.
Squirmer - I will try to meet you there on the Combat Net this afternoon.
Gary: I suppose 90% of all pbem I ever did were of the 4-6000 variety a large map. 90% were also meeting engagements (ironic since meeting engagements seldom took place).
I will start with 2-3 of these and switch nations and maps and see how they are recieved and go from there. After this is finished.
- Attachments
-
- pbemtestscen110.zip
- (38.13 KiB) Downloaded 14 times
-
Don Doom
- Posts: 1984
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Redleg
one: You are going a great job/service for the spwaw commuity!!:D
two:Is it possible to make one where the two players start along the edge[10-15 hexes from edge] and have to take a resonable size city and also defend from possible flanking attacks by infantry and or mech mixture force.
one: You are going a great job/service for the spwaw commuity!!:D
two:Is it possible to make one where the two players start along the edge[10-15 hexes from edge] and have to take a resonable size city and also defend from possible flanking attacks by infantry and or mech mixture force.
Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining
Hello Doom
I just missed you at the Combat Net. My ISP failed and I had a major crash. Just as I went back, you were gone. LOL
So a city in the center - the two players move to occupy and then hold?
That shouldn't be too hard. Medium map 3000 points or so might work ok.
What city and country? What nations? When?
I'll be happy to make that. It sounds like fun.
If all goes well, it may be a service - I sure wish I could play the darned things.
I may have to go shopping for still another ISP.
I just missed you at the Combat Net. My ISP failed and I had a major crash. Just as I went back, you were gone. LOL
So a city in the center - the two players move to occupy and then hold?
That shouldn't be too hard. Medium map 3000 points or so might work ok.
What city and country? What nations? When?
I'll be happy to make that. It sounds like fun.
If all goes well, it may be a service - I sure wish I could play the darned things.
I may have to go shopping for still another ISP.
-
Don Doom
- Posts: 1984
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Originally posted by Redleg
Hello Doom
I just missed you at the Combat Net. My ISP failed and I had a major crash. Just as I went back, you were gone. LOL
So a city in the center - the two players move to occupy and then hold? Yes
That shouldn't be too hard. Medium map 3000 points or so might work ok.
What city and country? What nations? When? 40-42 any country, city hmm industrial works with train yard.
I'll be happy to make that. It sounds like fun.
If all goes well, it may be a service - I sure wish I could play the darned things. anytime any place, will happy to help
I may have to go shopping for still another ISP.
Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining
Hello Don Doom.
Here's something for you to look at. Please see if it fits your request or not.
Soviet is player 1; German is player 2 this time.
Approx 2000 points each player.
Check it out and let me know?
Here's something for you to look at. Please see if it fits your request or not.
Soviet is player 1; German is player 2 this time.
Approx 2000 points each player.
Check it out and let me know?
- Attachments
-
- pbemtestscen111.zip
- (58.98 KiB) Downloaded 14 times
-
Don Doom
- Posts: 1984
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Hi redleg
Looks good, when is the revised version being released? I hope to use it soon.Originally posted by Redleg
Hello Don Doom.
Here's something for you to look at. Please see if it fits your request or not.
Soviet is player 1; German is player 2 this time.
Approx 2000 points each player.
Check it out and let me know?
Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining