IJ production mistakes

[bigred]

More errors, which in this case may be good for me. I note differences of opinion as to the best air production. Next time I have an off day I will wait 24 hours before I execute "the plan" as to increase input of thought for the decision process.

Also note in this SP the Ki27 factory. I believe this is the factory that converts to Tojo. Read about it somewhere by a helpful post writer.

[bigred]

Mike Solli
I'd convert the Sonia factory.

too what?

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: bigred

My next concern is the definition of meduim and long range LBA. Japan army has no long range planes untill 44 when it probably does not need it as the allies willbe coming to me. I have noted the differences between the sally and the Lilly.

For purposes of this discussion the Lilly will become a low level medium attack DB and the Sally/Hellen will become the higher altitude level bomber.

The standout feature of the Sally is a 2200lb load.

The stand out feature of the advanced Lilly is a DB capability plus a +1 armor rating,but the load is 1100lb.

The next level bomber in the pipe is the Ki49. Better range, load 1700 and upgrades to +1 armor in second adition plus a load increase to 2200lbs.

So the plan for me is to replace the Sally w/ the Ki49 Hellen over time. I would also like to use the Lilly as a land based DB into 43. Might come in handy in CBI.
Sally Sqns=11
Lilly Sqns= 8

The first upgrade of the lilly has started its run (w +1 armor, the first upgraded sqn is on the way to Hawaii for combat test!!!)so I will look to see if all the factories converted to Lilly.

Also the first Ki49s are in the pool. But no need yet to replace the Sally. If my forward deployed LBA had been taking losses then I could see a need to increase frame and engine production NOW. But I do not feel a need for more army air frames at this time.

But from this SP it looks like the Ki49 needs more than 10 engines a month especially since it uses 2 engines. So I need to increase the Ha34 from 10 to about 28 engines per month to match the 14 frames built. On the other hand I realy dont want to utilize the Ki49-Ia in my units. So I may wait until the IIa appears to gear up engine production.
I do ask for comments on this issue.

I don't think the Lily will survive Allied fighters in 1943. Just like I mentioned above, they are relegated to backwaters. I think the future of the IJAAF bomber force is range. Keep them as far to the rear as possible and use them for precision strikes against enemy ground forces. Against airfields, they die in droves. I'd start with Sallys and eventually Helens. If you don't like the Ki-49-Ia, keep the factory off until it upgrades. I'd build up whatever engine pool is going to be needed. Plan what you estimate you'll use and build some of the engines you'll need later. That way, you may not have to increase engine production. When you start to produce the Helen model you use, reduce/stop Sally production. As you upgrade Sally Sentai to Helens, those Sallys will replenish the pool to replace losses. Check out the reinforcement schedule to see if you get any Sally Kamikaze units at the end of the war. If so, a Sally pool is a good thing.

So am I correct to say -forget the single engine GS frame and the Lilly DB, concentrate on the Ki49 for most production of midwar frames.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: bigred

Mike Solli
I'd convert the Sonia factory.

too what?

Good question. Since you can increase factory size by 1 if you want to, changing factories isn't as necessary as it used to be in WitP. You can always hold off until you see something you want to increase faster than 1 per day. Convert the Sonia to that and then you can increase by 2 per day.

[Mike Solli]

What did you do with the Ida factory?  That's a given to change.  Did you turn it off at least?

[Historiker]

So am I correct to say -forget the single engine GS frame and the Lilly DB, concentrate on the Ki49 for most production of midwar frames.

your choice [:)] You've heard both sides now and can decide for yourself

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: Djordje

ORIGINAL: bigred


Djordje seems to have the naval LBA figured out. I like his proposal and will begin planning to execute this task.



Concerning army LBA intend to study 3 types of ground support planes. sHORT RANGE gs, MEDIUM gs AND LONG RANGE gs.
1. Close single engine air support from nearby 2size AFields. Seems the KI51 SONJA is the short range plane of the future, but the old ANN has a better range and 2x bomb load. The good thing about the Sonja is the upgrade comes w/ level 1 armor in 11/43.
So next I wondered how many close ground suport SQNs I have.
Ann=5 Load 950 service 1 range 6 engine ha5 builds-0
Mary=3 load 950 service 2 range 5 engine- early kawasaki builds=0
Sonja=8 load 450 service 2 range 4 engine ha31 builds=30

The Ann wins out. Production wise speaking, untill 11/43 I will duel track the Ann/Sonja. My target for Ann Production is 30 per month. I will restart the HA 5 engine production when the Ann starts to arrive.

Supply cost. Off the top of my head(i do stand to be corrected)
to change a factory cost:
1000x supply per each point
10x HI
10x resources
or
30x1000supply=30000
10hi x30=300
10man x30=300
The next question is "what factory do I want to convert to the Ann?"

IJA LBA: I recomend that you stop production of single engine light bombers. You should have enough produced for the rare situations where you might want to use them and in general twin engined medium bombers are better for every role.

You should consider this:
41/12 - 42/09: Ki-21-IIa Sally - 60 AC per month, switch to Ki-49-IIa on 42/09
42/04 - 42/09: Ki-49-Ia - 30-60 AC per month, switch to Ki-49-IIa on 42/09
42/09 - 43/09: Ki-49-IIa - 90-120 AC per month. switch to Ki-49-IIb on 43/09
You get first Ki-68-Ia Peggy in 44/01 but by then you should already be experienced and will know what you need.

Even though Ki-49-Ia is inferior to both Ki-21 and Ki-49-IIb it has one useful advantage - it is the only model that gets MAD device in 44/06 which is useful against submarines. Once you start producing IIb model start assigning Ia to IJA squadrons that you will be using on ASW patrol and start training them for ASW missions. Just make sure not to withdraw them all from the map at the same time or your industry will recycle them.

I totally disagree with the text wirtten in bold!
1e bombers are vital. You need them for training, you need them for fronline support.
- they cost half es much as 2e. So why should he use Ki-49 to train his ASW pilots? Do they perform better, if they are used to the model? You want verey training unit equipped with 1e bombers, because they usually have a lower service raiting and the pilots thus train more. Also, the ops losses are way less expensive.
- you want bombers that can fly their missions from tiny airfields. I don't say you need them in the thousands, but you need them. They are well enough to turn a fleeing (or attacking) enemy unit from move to combat mode and so make it slower. They can also disrupt.
- you want expendable (=cheper) planes for 2nd line duty. There are spots in china where you'll never or hardly ever face an enemy fighter. So you usually don't have fighters there yourself - what for? Still, if you regularly bomb, a clever opponent may prepare an ambush once every few months. In this case, I'd rather have my cheap planes shot down than my good ones. I have my doubts that 2e bombers perform significantly better against a well trained cap of a significant size!
- they need less supplies to fly, so they are a good choice for inner china or regions with close battlefields but difficult supply routes (maybe ground support in the aleutians, or china)

I restart the ann and keep her in production until all engines on stock are used up. The Ki-51 stays in production for the roles mentioned above. They don't have to come in the thousands, but you will love to have a few available.

Thanks Historiker, I was thinking the same tactical issues about size 2 airfields in the DEI. Plenty of air fields, hard to bomb every one of them, just like a sponge. Can a 1e fly out of a size one AF? I wish, but dont think I can.

Another issue is the size of the load dropped by an Ann on ASW patrol vs any other single engine plane. think about it.

[Djordje]

ORIGINAL: bigred

it is the only model that gets MAD

Please define=MAD
Please define=WAD

MAD - ASW device http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... t/asw3.htm
WAD - forum term, abbreviation for Working As Designed

[Djordje]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

1e bombers are vital. You need them for training, you need them for fronline support.
- they cost half es much as 2e. So why should he use Ki-49 to train his ASW pilots? Do they perform better, if they are used to the model? You want verey training unit equipped with 1e bombers, because they usually have a lower service raiting and the pilots thus train more. Also, the ops losses are way less expensive.

You start with more than enough 1e bombers for training duties. I usually even switch Ki-21-Ic model in Manchuria for some 1e model and use it on front line. But speaking of cost, even though they are only half the cost of twin engined plane, you still pay for producing them, while I don't produce them at all. When I am finished with upgrading all the front line units to 2E I have more than enough 1E for training. Operational losses in training are very low and by the time I need replacements I already have some outdated 2E planes ready to be used in training squadrons, for example I will return Ki-21-Ic back to Manchuria once I have enough Ki-21-IIb or Ki-49-IIa models.

- you want bombers that can fly their missions from tiny airfields. I don't say you need them in the thousands, but you need them. They are well enough to turn a fleeing (or attacking) enemy unit from move to combat mode and so make it slower. They can also disrupt.

Actually I don't. You can fly 2E bombers from level 2 airports, but I always try to build up my AFs to at least lvl 4 since I prefer to put escort squadron in the same base to get better coordination results. If I used 1E bombers I would still not use small AFs because of the overstacking limit. Not to mention longer range of 2E bombers which allows you to operate them from your own territory instead of some front line AF. In almost all cases where you could use front line small AF with 1E you have larger AF back in your own territory to fly 2E bombers from it, with escorts too.

- you want expendable (=cheper) planes for 2nd line duty. There are spots in china where you'll never or hardly ever face an enemy fighter. So you usually don't have fighters there yourself - what for? Still, if you regularly bomb, a clever opponent may prepare an ambush once every few months. In this case, I'd rather have my cheap planes shot down than my good ones. I have my doubts that 2e bombers perform significantly better against a well trained cap of a significant size!

I never send bombers without escort, not even in China. They always have Oscar support even on regular bombing run. If ambush happens it is not the planes lost that will hurt me, it is the pilots that count. They will die almost the same in 1E or 2E without armor.

- they need less supplies to fly, so they are a good choice for inner china or regions with close battlefields but difficult supply routes (maybe ground support in the aleutians, or china)

I have yet to experience supply problem in China. You have, or can easily build up large AFs on bases that are sitting on railroads therefore they will always be well supplied. If you suffer supply shortages in those bases it surely is not caused by using 2E bombers instead of 1E, the ground army is eating 99% of supplies and you are not bringing enough supplies to the theater.

I restart the ann and keep her in production until all engines on stock are used up. The Ki-51 stays in production for the roles mentioned above. They don't have to come in the thousands, but you will love to have a few available.

Again, Japanese player starts with more than enough 1E planes for the uses they have. In the first months of the war they will see limited front line duty, then they get relegated to training, naval and ASW searches and eventually get replaced in those roles by Ki-49-Ia model which gets MAD device later.

[Historiker]

It seems we have different aproaches [;)]

[Chickenboy]

I don't use those 1E IJAAF bombers much myself and tend to upgrade ASAP.

But there's an advantage of having large numbers of them in your pools when 1 January 1944 rolls around. Kamikaze, baby! They'll make a fine Kamikaze strike aircraft, especially if escorted. Keep a goodly chunk of them around.

[bigred]

Thanks for the very specific comments with differing views. Wonderfully good info to help make decisions.

The Die has been cast. I have a view for what I want to do w/ the planes available and I will probably tailor my production to support my operational plans. Yes supply has been increased at both plants. No I have not yet turned off Ki49 production, but I might.




Next in the decision process I must think about my fighter selections.

[Mike Solli]

A couple of comments.  First of all, as Historiker said, "It seems we have different aproaches".  How true!  That's what makes this game fun.
 
Anyway, now the comments:
 
1. Why are you bothering with the Ki-56 Thalia?
2. You may want to consider increasing the Ki-46-II.  That's your only IJAAF recon plane producing.  As your Babs and Ki-46-I run out, you'll need to upgrade.  I'm not sure if 11 per month is going to be enough.
3. 60 Ki-46-Ic sounds like a lot now, but wait until you find your opponent pushing back in the air.  You'll have a hard time keeping your Sentai filled.
4. H8K1 - 24 a month!  [X(]!

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

A couple of comments.  First of all, as Historiker said, "It seems we have different aproaches".  How true!  That's what makes this game fun.

Anyway, now the comments:

1. Why are you bothering with the Ki-56 Thalia?
2. You may want to consider increasing the Ki-46-II.  That's your only IJAAF recon plane producing.  As your Babs and Ki-46-I run out, you'll need to upgrade.  I'm not sure if 11 per month is going to be enough.
3. 60 Ki-46-Ic sounds like a lot now, but wait until you find your opponent pushing back in the air.  You'll have a hard time keeping your Sentai filled.
4. H8K1 - 24 a month!  [X(]!

Ki-48-IIa @ 34 /month in light of your Helen and Sally production run is, IMO, excessive. Since you're producing both of the others at modest numbers, consider discontinuing Lilly production and repurposing the factory.

[bigred]

H8K1 - 24 a month!  Yep, that is a mistake.  What a hamboner.   I really wanted 12 per month and I thought I was increasing the mavis. So I must have been up late that night. So 1/2 to two thirds of the time I will turn it off....

Have one factory listed as not used.

[mariandavid]

An excellent and informative thread! Also, like the starter of this thread, in need of some advice on initial Japanese strategies. And especially on the aircraft research factories: A bit puzzled how to handle this. As far as I can tell there are three groups. First the ones that you retain as close to completion - stuff like the Helen and Tojo (ie for production not acceleration); second those that you want to boost in order to bring on a few months early, but not that far distant - such as George, Frank - basically close to the start of '44 time-period (this thread has suggested that any earlier are not worth accelerating); third those that will be needed to face the Allies in 1945.

To take care of the second and third groups I assume that one must (at once!) discard a whole lot of nice but irrelevent aircraft typeseg the Q1W1 Lorna and L2D2 Tabby. I was going as far as to reassign all those that would appear in mid-45 on except for two - the J7W1 Shinden (for the IJN carriers - dream away!) and the Ki 94 II for the JAAF. I looked at the Ki 201 (the Japanese Me 262) but its 'support' rating of 5 makes it unlikely - if there is even one level 6 airbase left in Japan by the start of 1946 I will be amazed.

So the issue from my point of view is the number (and amount) of research factories and the aricraft type dedicated to my second group - quite apart from the obvious fighters. Any advice on this would be helpful. I am particularly concerned with accelerating night-fighter types (both IJN and IJA) but have little idea as to which are good middle-to-long term prospects. I looked at the late war Ki 109-I and S1A2 but very much doubt if they are worth reseaching.

[bigred]

No wonder the Ha32 engine was in short supply. The mavis is unarmored and the emily seems to have alot of weapons.

[Marcus_Antonius]

Japanese bombers do die in droves, and you don't have to wait till '43 either. .

Switching to night operations seems to be a very good way to go. Even if what you can accomplish at night is more limited, it makes the bombers much more survivable and keeps them contributing.

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: a_gonatas

Japanese bombers do die in droves, and you don't have to wait till '43 either. .

Switching to night operations seems to be a very good way to go. Even if what you can accomplish at night is more limited, it makes the bombers much more survivable and keeps them contributing.

I somehow did make a mistake w/ the emily. I wanted to increase production to 12 and slowly phase out the mavis. Hit the 12 twice by some accident late one night last week.
I do have a lemon and the question as time goes by is what kind of lemonade I want to make.

[bigred]

tm.asp?m=2480662

Mid war fighter production. Credit to this thread for my future decisions.

crsutton:
What we have now is the "tojo gap" where it can be produced in tremendous numbers and owns the skies from mid 1942 until mid 1943. There are just not enough P38s or coursairs to counter it and the P47 is the first real fighter in numbers that can go head to head with it. So far in my game, the tojo has totally owned my P40s. I see it as a big advantage for the Japanese player. I see no reason for the Japanese player to produce the tony. The difference between a service rating of 1 and a service rating of 3 is very significant. Just ask any allied player who is trying to keep buffalos and lightnings up in the air.

For me, with seemingly all of my air attacks going in uncoordinated, the tojo just eats my fighters and mediums up forcing me to rely more on my heavies to carry the weight. I really see no need for the tony.

Too bad, as the tony was a important Japanese fighter, and it would be fun to see it in the game. Unless things change I don't think we will see it much at all.