Fortifications and Mines?

[Capt Cliff]

Well I broke down and bought the game. I am a sucker for Bulge games. But playing BftB I noticed that there aren't any mines or forts. I pulled up the scenario editor and could not find any place where you could place minefields?? The lack of forts or a fortified position vs. being entrenched is also missing?? Any explaination?

[Arjuna]

There are a number of scenarios with fortifications. Richard can advise on which ones. Minefield effects have been abstractly factored into forts and entrenchments but we are yet to model these in full detail within the engine. It is on the wish list.

[simovitch]

Welcome Capt Cliff.
If by 'forts' you mean you mean Castles, there are a few of the larger ones like Vianden and Beufort shown, otherwise only those parts of the westwall that had any effect on the campaign are represented - i.e. the dragons teeth or höckerlinie which only effect movement and provide a little cover. Otherwise the westwall fortifications were left out in favor of the dragon's teeth since we only had one fortification type terrain slot.

The captured german bunkers that the US troops occupied on the Schnee Eifel and east of Ouren were facing the wrong way (i.e. to the west) to have any real defensive benefits in game terms. The Clervaux chateau is too small to house more than one company, and there are dozens if not hundreds of similar chateaus and stone churches in the Ardennes. It was decided early on that sticking a fort in every town that had a stone church or chateau was not practical in an operational game, and again we used the fort terrain slot for dragons teeth, except on the Southern Shoulder maps where there were large castles and no dragon's teeth.

The game manual says that a unit has to be in fort terrain to become fortified and we decided it would be best to hold to that.

[wodin]

I remeber mines was going to be the big addition to BftB...quitely got dropped along the way

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: simovitch

Welcome Capt Cliff.
If by 'forts' you mean you mean Castles, there are a few of the larger ones like Vianden and Beufort shown, otherwise only those parts of the westwall that had any effect on the campaign are represented - i.e. the dragons teeth or höckerlinie which only effect movement and provide a little cover. Otherwise the westwall fortifications were left out in favor of the dragon's teeth since we only had one fortification type terrain slot.

The captured german bunkers that the US troops occupied on the Schnee Eifel and east of Ouren were facing the wrong way (i.e. to the west) to have any real defensive benefits in game terms. The Clervaux chateau is too small to house more than one company, and there are dozens if not hundreds of similar chateaus and stone churches in the Ardennes. It was decided early on that sticking a fort in every town that had a stone church or chateau was not practical in an operational game, and again we used the fort terrain slot for dragons teeth, except on the Southern Shoulder maps where there were large castles and no dragon's teeth.

The game manual says that a unit has to be in fort terrain to become fortified and we decided it would be best to hold to that.

Hello to you Sim!

Well I don't think Castle is the right word. I mean a place that has reinforced covers for arty ... extensive barbed wire and minefield placed by engineer units. Wooden bunkers .... tank traps ... etc. This is verses a place where the infantry unit has simple entrenched or dug fox holes. These fortifications should have a facing. You's get 100% of the fort value when being attacked from the front but 50% from the rear or less. If I remember right The Great Redoubt at Borodino was taken from behind by Cavalry, Napoleonic's another are I am a sucker for. Engineer should be able to prepare a postion and select the way it points ... it should stay on the map for 24 or 48 hours or if occupied by a unit, from either side. They should also degrade if combat is fought over them.

If minefield are ... "abtracted" ... then the game is missing a big chunk of the tactical resource that a minefield presents. They are for channeling attacks, also you have engineers to clear them. Perhaps a patch could add this. I do believe that Skyline Drive had a lot of minefields that channeled the German attack, but they are not there on the game map.

[wodin]

CApt Cliff...you will be lucky to get a patch to add mines....it was going to be the BIG addition to the series but got dropped due to the amount of work...so no chance in hell of it being in a patch....

[Capt Cliff]

I am re-reading Cole's The Ardennes: Battle of the Bulge and I found an interesting statement about minefields. Basically it was about 1st SS PD's march west. There were two columns the northern one was Pieper and the southern one was a mech infantry regiment with a battalion of assault guns. This south force, according to Cole;
 
"The southern route, through Recht and Vielsalm, was assigned to a kampfgruppe of the 1st SS Panzer Division made up of a reinforced panzer grenadier regiment and a battalion of assault guns. This group had been delayed by poor roads and American mine fields west of Manderfeld, and by the end of 17 December it was some hours behind the north column."
 
To either remove them or getting around them will cost you time. To attack through them costs you casualties. IMHO they need to be included.

[Chief Rudiger]

I remember reading a comment about the American's at Omaha Beach taking forever to exit the beach, even once free from direct fire, because they weren't experienced/equiped for clearing minefields properly and therefore passed single file through "cleared" paths stepping in the man ahead's footsteps and passing "injured" and un-evacuable men on the way.

Likewise, i also read something about the someone "helpfully" marking a burnt out truck "watch out for mines in the verge" on the XXX Corp's single highway to Arnhem, just past the start line... making drivers afraid to go off the road any way and adding to congestion.

Anyway...

You might use the map editor to change the "motorised" and "non-motorised" "movement effect" values to those closer to Wood or Rough terrain, to slow movement. Similarly, you might bump the "Hit Effect" values >100, like Woods, to simulate greater vulnerability. You might also clear woods from around the road so as to increase traffics visibility.

I assume these changes would combine to make the road a death trap, if the obstacle is observed and defended. You would have to cut and paste all "minor roads" to the "road" layer, or vice versa, to free up a terrain class to simulate mined roads, but that wouldn't be too bad - is there much a difference between these two anyway, other than cosmetic?

Alternatively you might try adding a bride "over"/on top of the "mined" road so that if you built the bridge you could make a faster crossing. I don't know whether bridges take the same length of time regardless of length, given the same engineer value of the bridging unit... but you could experiment. If you search the COTA forum i'm sure someone tried something similar.

[wodin]

As I stated before mines where in an Africa user made scenario...

[simovitch]

Except for the massive minefields in North Africa and possibly Normandy or the westwall campaigns I just can't get my head around how minefields are really going to enhance play in BFTB to a point where the resources required to implement them is justified.

The original concept was a type of dynamic terrain that can be placed or removed by the scenario designer, or a unit in play. Imagine the poor scenario designer who has to place patches of tactical minefields in historical locations from Monschau to Echternach for his scenarios, or the hapless AI who has to place/remove/negotiate them during play. Personally I was relieved when minefields were pulled from the scope, but mostly because it would have delayed the release of the game significantly for only a minor (imo) enhancement.

I hope it happens for Normandy, and it has to happen for North Africa, but I can live without them in the Bulge.

[Chief Rudiger]

ORIGINAL: wodin

As I stated before mines where in an Africa user made scenario...

Where did you state this?

[wodin]

sorry...in another thread where Capt Cliff mentions them...can't remember the scenario but it is one of the user made African ones for CotA...

[Wiggum]

I hope it happens for Normandy, and it has to happen for North Africa, but I can live without them in the Bulge.

Normandy ?
So the next "Command Ops" game will have normandy as scenarios ?
That sounds cool !

[simovitch]

Wiggum, the next title hasn't been determined yet.[:)]