John Tiller or Norm Koger

[rowech]

I plan on buying one of these two games given them being on sale. Which should I pick up given the following considerations:

1. "Bang for the Buck" -- want the game to give me a lot of scenarios. Seems like both games will do this?

2. Needs to have good AI -- I'll be playing this game on my own so I need it to have a good AI.

3. Accessible to a new gamer -- I've been toying with wargames the last year on the tabletop but I've been sticking with simple games. Don't want to be overloaded with a game. Along the same lines, it would be great if the game had a nice help file.

4. Fun -- want the game to be fun obviously...would like to learn some as well.

[Lützow]

1. Both have tons of content and can occupy one for years. However, JTCS offers tactical combat with miniatures, while TOAW III aims for operational level and is more massive - they're total different in playstile and scope. For a short introduction with ingame scenes search at youtube.

2. As usual. If you're new to a game, the AI will challenge you. After a while it won't anymore.

3. I started with Panzer General back in the 90's and moved to East Front (Campaign Series) afterwards. At this time TOAW was still too abstract for my taste, but this changed when I got more proficient with wargaming.

4. Fun is always in the eye of the beholder and it depends what you expect to learn, these titles are no 'militairy study sims'. But if you want a personal advice: purchase TOAW III and look at shrapnelgames for the free version of WinSPWW2. This one is quite comparable to JTCS.

[jomni]

1.  Both JTCS and TOAW gives you bang for your buck as they all have tons of scenarios.
2.  JTCS has predictable AI if you play a lot of it.  But it's still fun.  TOAW has scripted AI so it's all based on the skill of the scenario designer.
3.  JTCS is more simple... turn based... just move and fire.  TOAW is has more settings like combat stance, etc.
4.  I find both fun.  But TOAW involves more work than JTCS.
 
One more thing.  TOAW goes beyond WW2.  JTCS is strictly WW2.

[NefariousKoel]

ORIGINAL: jomni

One more thing.  TOAW goes beyond WW2.  JTCS is strictly WW2.

That, along with scale, is the big difference.

Also, if you were to compare them to tabletop games then the Campaign Series is more like a miniatures game while TAOW is the big hex-map and counters style. Though they both uses hexes.

[junk2drive]

JTCS can be played in 3D (isometric) minis style or 2D counter style.

[Lützow]

One can use counters for JTCS and 3D models for TOAW, but it plays better vice versa.

[jomni]

You would notice that the "3D" models of both games look similar.
That's because both were originally published by Talonsoft and use the same graphics library.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: rowech

I plan on buying one of these two games given them being on sale. Which should I pick up given the following considerations:

1. "Bang for the Buck" -- want the game to give me a lot of scenarios. Seems like both games will do this?

2. Needs to have good AI -- I'll be playing this game on my own so I need it to have a good AI.

3. Accessible to a new gamer -- I've been toying with wargames the last year on the tabletop but I've been sticking with simple games. Don't want to be overloaded with a game. Along the same lines, it would be great if the game had a nice help file.

4. Fun -- want the game to be fun obviously...would like to learn some as well.

1. John Tiller's series such as Panzer Campaigns contain the most "out of the wrapper" scenarios in any wargame I've ever found. I know the guys who make the maps and create the scenarios and their research is a labor of love.

2. John Tiller's games fall short in terms of competitive AI. SSG's games (see Battles in Normandy and Kharkov here) are far better in this regard. Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War has never impressed me either.

3. John Tiller's games are extremely easy to understand and learn. Just expect to do a lot of clicking to move hundreds of units in his bigger scenarios.

4. Fun to me = a good AI. That's why neither of the above designers are recommended for solitaire play. Go SSG instead. Or as I do, play board wargames against yourself.

[jomni]

Above comments are true.
I'm an avid PBEM gamer of Tiller Games as they are good PBEM games.
 

[diablo1]

I'd have to agree with Adam above the ai's aren't very challenging but the detail and depth of TOAW III is over the top.
 
I would recommend SSG's Battles in Italy as you get the best of both worlds and plenty of mods to play just about any varient of WWII European theater.

[Lützow]

SSG games, while superior in graphics and quality, fall short in terms of comprehension. In addition, they're harder to learn than JTCS.

I guess its's not exactly what OP asked for.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Lützow

SSG games, while superior in graphics and quality, fall short in terms of comprehension.

Unsure what you mean here. I found both Battles in Normandy and Kharkov's Husky (Invasion of Sicily Scenario for the OP) games to faithfully recreate history. My Patton found himself frustratingly stuck outside Messina whilst my Monty slugged his way ever so slowly up the right flank of Etna [:D]

As a side note, Husky (the newer incarnation of the system) plays well solitaire as the Axis too.

[Lützow]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: Lützow

SSG games, while superior in graphics and quality, fall short in terms of comprehension.

Unsure what you mean here. I found both Battles in Normandy and Kharkov's Husky (Invasion of Sicily Scenario for the OP) games to faithfully recreate history.

I do agree here. AtD II is my favorite Matrix title for this year, gave it a high rating in my German Reviev. On the other hand, these games don't deliver that much content, in comparison to TOAW and it's by far easier to get into JTCS than learning SSG's ruleset.

[NefariousKoel]

ORIGINAL: jomni

You would notice that the "3D" models of both games look similar.
That's because both were originally published by Talonsoft and use the same graphics library.

It looks far better in the campaign series. I don't bother with anything but the NATO symbol counters in TAOW as I suspect most people do.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Lützow

AtD II is my favorite Matrix title for this year, gave it a high rating in my German Reviev. On the other hand, these games don't deliver that much content, in comparison to TOAW...

I totally agree with that. SSG is shooting themselves in the foot as a result.

[berto]

ORIGINAL: rowech

I plan on buying one of these two games given them being on sale. Which should I pick up given the following considerations:

1. "Bang for the Buck" -- want the game to give me a lot of scenarios. Seems like both games will do this?

2. Needs to have good AI -- I'll be playing this game on my own so I need it to have a good AI.

3. Accessible to a new gamer -- I've been toying with wargames the last year on the tabletop but I've been sticking with simple games. Don't want to be overloaded with a game. Along the same lines, it would be great if the game had a nice help file.

4. Fun -- want the game to be fun obviously...would like to learn some as well.

Although it doesn't meet all your criteria (yes to 1, 3 and 4; no to 2), overall I think you would be happier with JTCS.

I'm a long-time player of JTCS and TOAW. Both are very fine games, but for my own reasons I prefer TOAW.

[gabeeg]

I prefer tactical wargames myself but own both JTCS (scratches my prefered tactical itch) and TOAW III.   I have to agree with Berto, though it does not meet all your criteria...it just seems to me like you would enjoy JTCS more.   This is not a slight on TOAW as it is a great game.  In fact it is the only operational computer wargame that I own...and honestly I do not think I need another one.  TOAW is soooo flexible it can be made to scratch whatever occasional operational itch that I get.   Both titles are loaded down with content (onboard and downloadable).
 
...I lied...I also own Uncommon Valor...suppose that is a more operational/strat type game. 
...damn, another lie....I might be interested in picking up WitpAE or War in the East someday...we will see.

[rowech]

I was looking at these two because they're on sale.  Doesn't seem from the responses that either is in the same class as some other games so I'll probably hold off.

[berto]

Your choice. But these are time-tested, excellent games. Classics of the genre.

[gabeeg]

ORIGINAL: rowech

I was looking at these two because they're on sale.  Doesn't seem from the responses that either is in the same class as some other games so I'll probably hold off.

Your choice, but TOAW is top of the class and with the 3.4 beta update looks as good as it plays. I cannot imagine there are many newer operational games that are better. I just bought JTCS in the sale this week myself. I have played around with some of the tutorial scenarios and it is just as fun as the newer HPS SB games IMO (though slightly different scale and the SB games are a bit more detailed/realistic). Right now I am alternating between Red Victory and JTCS and having the same amount of fun playing both. By the way Red Victory is a gem. But, you got to find what fits your needs and wants so I understand.