Pieper's Race to the Muese Scenario

[Capt Cliff]

This is the historical scenario that starts with 1st SS south of the river next to Stavelot. There seems to be a problem with the road net or the cost of movement or other factors, but each time I play the scenario as the USA German armor and mech units (and that FJ unit) arrive at Trois Point, south of the river, by 8:00 am. Two hours is insufficent time to allow the engineers to prime the bridges. So each time I started that scenario I lost both bridges to the German. The one time I played the German I captured the Ambleve bridge but the Salm bridge was blown, but again I was way early. The computer I feel is cheating ... LOL.

Historically Pieper did not reach Trios Point until 11:15 am, strung out in road colum, and he was on the north side of the Ambleve. About an hour later a PZIV unit appear at Trios Point on the south side but retreated when it found both bridges blown. It was truly lucky that those bridges were blown at Trios Point, a 57mm anti-tank gun crew from the 526th AI giving the last full measure of devotion allowed the engineers the time to blown both bridges. hard to recreate in a game.

I've looked at the road net south of the Ambleve and see a lot of minor roads, yet Coles map shows only two trails. I even modified the map to all trails and the German armor still shows up at Trois Point, south of the Ambleve by 8:00 am?? Armor on trails should take like forever to move yet I notice how they just zip around on them.

Anyway ... my input.

[tukker]

There seems to be a problem with the road net or the cost of movement or other factors, but each time I play the scenario as the USA German armor and mech units (and that FJ unit) arrive at Trois Point, south of the river, by 8:00 am. Two hours is insufficent time to allow the engineers to prime the bridges. So each time I started that scenario I lost both bridges to the German

The bridges are primed at the start of the scenario. I just ran the first two hours of the scenario, gave the Engineers at Trois Ponts a "Deny Crossing" order, and both bridges were blown in the face of the attacking Germans - and yes, this happened at about 8 am.

About the FJ Coy: historically, they hitched a ride on Peiper's tanks. Since it's not possible to mount/dismount units (yet), I had to improvise when designing the scenario. At first I used an FJ Coy on foot, but obviously they couln't keep up with Peiper. I then opted for a motorized FJ Coy instead, with the unfortunate side effect that they are the first to show up at Trois Ponts for breakfast [;)]

I've looked at the road net south of the Ambleve and see a lot of minor roads, yet Coles map shows only two trails.

The maps in BFTB were made with scans of the original US Army maps of the 1940's, so apparently the roads south of the Ambleve showed as minor roads, not tracks, on these maps. I know that a lot of effort was put into making the maps, and I believe them to be very accurate.

The main route from south of Stavelot to Trois Ponts runs north of the Ambleve. (This is also the "Quickest Path" found by the path finding tool in the game), so it's not surprising that Peiper tried to take this route in 1944. It's equally not surprising that the AI, identifying enemy units in Stavelot, ops for a detour via Wanne. This was an option open to Peiper, he just didn't take it.

Having said that, I do appreciate your comments on the scenario, and I hope you'll have fun playing it

Pieter

[wodin]

Blimey Capt....your really going for a detailed analysis of the scenarios....if I did that I would no longer have any fun with the game..no way could any sim be so accurate that it ran to exactly to the same timetable as real life...to many variables in a game engine...also what would be the point of playing it if you got historical outcomes everytime...as long as they a reasonably close I'm happy.....

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: tukker

There seems to be a problem with the road net or the cost of movement or other factors, but each time I play the scenario as the USA German armor and mech units (and that FJ unit) arrive at Trois Point, south of the river, by 8:00 am. Two hours is insufficent time to allow the engineers to prime the bridges. So each time I started that scenario I lost both bridges to the German

The bridges are primed at the start of the scenario. I just ran the first two hours of the scenario, gave the Engineers at Trois Ponts a "Deny Crossing" order, and both bridges were blown in the face of the attacking Germans - and yes, this happened at about 8 am.

About the FJ Coy: historically, they hitched a ride on Peiper's tanks. Since it's not possible to mount/dismount units (yet), I had to improvise when designing the scenario. At first I used an FJ Coy on foot, but obviously they couln't keep up with Peiper. I then opted for a motorized FJ Coy instead, with the unfortunate side effect that they are the first to show up at Trois Ponts for breakfast [;)]

I've looked at the road net south of the Ambleve and see a lot of minor roads, yet Coles map shows only two trails.

The maps in BFTB were made with scans of the original US Army maps of the 1940's, so apparently the roads south of the Ambleve showed as minor roads, not tracks, on these maps. I know that a lot of effort was put into making the maps, and I believe them to be very accurate.

The main route from south of Stavelot to Trois Ponts runs north of the Ambleve. (This is also the "Quickest Path" found by the path finding tool in the game), so it's not surprising that Peiper tried to take this route in 1944. It's equally not surprising that the AI, identifying enemy units in Stavelot, ops for a detour via Wanne. This was an option open to Peiper, he just didn't take it.

Having said that, I do appreciate your comments on the scenario, and I hope you'll have fun playing it

Pieter

When I look at the Bridge at the start of the scenario both bridges were un-primed!!?? I'll check again. I gave the deny crossing order ans they slowly started to prime the bridge. Is the priming of the bridge done on the map or in the scenario? I have changed the map.

I have found a great map of the Stavelot area; http://www.oldhickory30th.com/Maps.htm it's about in the middle of the page. There doesn't seem to be that trail that parallels the river from Stavelot to Trios Pont. There's another link on that site to some maps of 1st SS's march from Dec 18th to 25th.

You know the movement rate for these trails and minor roads could be off. These are snow covered roads that would only allow road column movement and at a snails pace. Unit's do seem to zip around a bit too much. I even had my King Tiger unit wander off into the light woods, like that would have never happened. Those beasts were road bound period.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Blimey Capt....your really going for a detailed analysis of the scenarios....if I did that I would no longer have any fun with the game..no way could any sim be so accurate that it ran to exactly to the same timetable as real life...to many variables in a game engine...also what would be the point of playing it if you got historical outcomes everytime...as long as they a reasonably close I'm happy.....

I've been playing Fallout 3 so when I got this game I wanted some historical accuracy, at least + or - an hour on events. The armored units just seemed to move just too fast over snow covered minor roads to give me a that warm and fuzzy feeling.

[simovitch]

Here's the scan of a portion of the GSGS 1943 maps we used for this particular scenario. The trail in question is shown with the arrow. Granted it is not much more than a cart track. A Panzer Regiment would probably have turned this road into an impassible quagmire in no time, and Peiper needed the hard surfaced road out of Stavelot for his LOC but in the scenario it's really not that much of an issue, so the player can send the whole group down the cart track to the back door of Trois Ponts if he wants. The flank group actually took the better road from Vaux Richard to Wanne. I think there is some merit to removing this and other tracks in the hilly areas.

The scenario starts when Peiper's bombardment of Stavelot began around 6:30; he didn't start the descent into Stavelot until 8:00 AM so historically the timing seems not so bad...

We can only do so much with the 100m grid and 4 road types. There will be instances in the game where tanks are traversing muddy slopes or skirting woods without roads where it would be impossible in 'real life'. I struggled with Dave on a number of these same issues during development but I finally had to wrap my head around the fact that it is an operational level game with the necessary abstractions and changing one parameter to meet the historical results of one situation invariable threw off the results of another - we had to stop somewhere.

[Capt Cliff]

Thanks simovitch!! That's the same map I found. Yes removing those tracks would be a good idea and perhaps changing the minor roads to track to the south, and upping the MF for tracks for armor and mech or motor. The idea behind that is they are snow covered roads and untraveled. Pieper may have been following a USA supply route where the snow was compacted on the highway. Looking south from Stavelot he probably could see the roads or barely and didn't know if they turned to dirt after 100 meters and would bog down his vehicles.

[simovitch]

Remember if there was any snow at all on the ground at this time it was in small patches here and there. It didn't start really snowing until a few days later. Just watch the videos of Kaiserbarack and the assault on Stoumont - no snow!

I can change and remove some road classes for the next patch but changing the movements rates is probably not going to happen within the stock scenarios.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: simovitch

Remember if there was any snow at all on the ground at this time it was in small patches here and there. It didn't start really snowing until a few days later. Just watch the videos of Kaiserbarack and the assault on Stoumont - no snow!

I can change and remove some road classes for the next patch but changing the movements rates is probably not going to happen within the stock scenarios.

Ah, good to know about the snow. But the roads might have showed evidence of being well traveled and Pieper might had been following that road hoping to run into a supply depot, like he did earlier I think at Bullingen (sp). Which he almost did fingd the massive fuel dump at Francochamps.

I was reading Cole last night and in post war interviews Pieper had the impression that Stavelot was held with a much stronger force, not so strong for him to by pass it, but enough to hold a reserve. I believe it was that reserve he relased to go for Trois Pont via Wanne. I assume I can change the MF's with in the scenario maker, yes? I might withhold the PZIV unit and a Mech unit and enter them as reinforcements at 9:30 am. Now is there a preset AI sub-routine that sends units to Trois Pont or is it a function of the placed objectives??

Mines played a big part too at Stavelot, I assume he used his engineers to clear them, costing time. The German rushed the bridge at Stavelot on evening of Dec 17 but the lead tank hit a minefield an was knocked out and the others retreated. But we have no mines in the game, I feel naked?? For some reason I feel that my fly is open!! Boy, having mines especially at a coy level are important. Almost a must for any patch. *hint.hint*

[wodin]

@CaptCliff...as I said before there is no chance mines will be in a patch...it was going to be one of the BIG new features for Bulge but it got dropped due to the complexity i.e staying hidden on the map and causing damage... from what I could gather...so no way would it appear in a patch mate....

HOWEVER someone did have mines in a user made scenario for CotA...they didn't cause damage but I believe slowed troops down...or where impassable...can't quite remember...

[simovitch]

Is there even a Bulge game with minefields in existance? not counting anything below company sized like CC, JTCS, or CM.

[johndoesecond]

Maybe there is a quick&dirty way to model minefields: just think of it as a ("light") bombardment directly on an unit from an off-map artillery/mortar, as soon as that unit moves over a mined area. Since every mine explodes only once, having that off-map artillery to have limited and non-resuppliable ammo would look right to me.

Sure, it's not perfect (for example, you would not be able to clean it up with you Engs, you would not see it on the map, etc.), but hey, I said it was quick&dirty.

Would that be too hard to implement? (Dave, don't shoot me!)

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: simovitch

Is there even a Bulge game with minefields in existance? not counting anything below company sized like CC, JTCS, or CM.

I can't remember if Wach am Rhien had mines, The D-Day game did. These dasiy-cluster (sp?) mines played a big role in channeling the German armored attack. I know Wach am Rhien had a cool system for road traffic jams, which I see nothing in this game at all.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: johndoesecond

Maybe there is a quick&dirty way to model minefields: just think of it as a ("light") bombardment directly on an unit from an off-map artillery/mortar, as soon as that unit moves over a mined area. Since every mine explodes only once, having that off-map artillery to have limited and non-resuppliable ammo would look right to me.

Sure, it's not perfect (for example, you would not be able to clean it up with you Engs, you would not see it on the map, etc.), but hey, I said it was quick&dirty.

Would that be too hard to implement? (Dave, don't shoot me!)

Taking aim now!

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff
I know Wach am Rhien had a cool system for road traffic jams, which I see nothing in this game at all.

You must be joking, right? [8|]

Try moving a Bde sized force along a road and then order another to do so, heading in the same direction or even crossing over the road from another direction. The AI will allow passage while the vehicle and pers counts are low, but once they get too high it slows movement to a crawl. Note that deployed units don't affect this as they are assumed to be deployed off road.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff
I know Wach am Rhien had a cool system for road traffic jams, which I see nothing in this game at all.

You must be joking, right? [8|]

Try moving a Bde sized force along a road and then order another to do so, heading in the same direction or even crossing over the road from another direction. The AI will allow passage while the vehicle and pers counts are low, but once they get too high it slows movement to a crawl. Note that deployed units don't affect this as they are assumed to be deployed off road.

No, I AM NOT JOKING! [:-] You know I was just reflecting on something and to come down on me like I am a fool is poor customer relations. When I said "... which I see nothing in this game at all." Meant I didn't notice units backing up at the Dashburg bridge.

Uncorking 2nd Panzer over the Dashburg bridge went way too easy and too quickly. It just didn't seem to show any traffic jams occurring. They seem to cross bridges in tactical formation, nice if the counter displayed whether the unit was in road column or not. But them it might, I have not checked all the bells and whistles.

[Arjuna]

My apologies Capt Cliff.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

My apologies Capt Cliff.

Apology accepted. It's the engineer in me, wanting to change it ... for the better I hope!