upcoming patch - question

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: crsutton
.... About CTs question?

As to the question - I am not aware of any such discussion - and I probably would be if there was one. Such checks have been in the code since day one of WITP (if not UV as well) so certainly nothing new.

michaelm once took a look at it when this came up on the forum and stated that it´s still the same as in WITP with 70 exp as the minimum trigger. Which then lead me to the question if it should be lowered in AE due to the simple fact that the average experience also was lowered by at least 15 points compared to AE. Don´t know if it would make sense for the people in charge, well, for me it would. Like it is now, it´s like taking out the feature completely as this is what people were reporting when playing through the whole war having not seen a single bomb being bigger than 500lb when being dropped from 2E or 4E bombers.

[JohnDillworth]

people were reporting when playing through the whole war having not seen a single bomb being bigger than 500lb when being dropped from 2E or 4E bombers

That was the case in my game. Except I got 2 somewhat larger bombs at the end.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

people were reporting when playing through the whole war having not seen a single bomb being bigger than 500lb when being dropped from 2E or 4E bombers

That was the case in my game. Except I got 2 somewhat larger bombs at the end.

yeah, but weren´t these bombs from bomber with bigger bombs by default (Mosquitos or some heavy British bombers)?

[michaelm75au]

The experience is that of the group.
It was the pilot experience in original WITP, but that check only applied to the first pilot. If the first pilot was 70+, then everyone in the group could fly with the larger bomb.

I changed it to the group experience before release as that evened out the range of pilot values.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The experience is that of the group.
It was the pilot experience in original WITP, but that check only applied to the first pilot. If the first pilot was 70+, then everyone in the group could fly with the larger bomb.

I changed it to the group experience before release as that evened out the range of pilot values.

but wouldn´t that make it even harder in AE? I sure got a 70+ exp pilot in each of my very experienced squadrons but none of them (Oct 43) has reached average exp 70, the best is at something like 65 IIRC.

[Sardaukar]

It makes using feature almost impossible, unless filling unit(s) with 70+exp pilots via "Request Veteran"...so one could probably never have more than 1-2 units using alternative/advanced bomb load...

[War History]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

ORIGINAL: War History

The game "Pacific War" (Grigsby SSI 1995) had it set up so there was a percentage chance from 70 to 90 (over 90 experience was a 100% chance) so 5% per experience point of using alternate ordinance. I wouldn't be surprised if this same formula made it into stock WitP, but I can not confirm this.

(I'll point out that in Pacific War, the Japanese got sig int rolls BTW. Players were allowed to target various bases and could do so multiple times to obtain more info on the base and yes if memory serves, the allies got 3 to 4 times the amount the Japanese got).

Well in Civilization, the barbarian hordes can appear without need of a city to spawn them from. Try and do that as the human player!

I guess I don't understand your point. Would this be an example of "trolling" that gets so many people banned from this forum? Because I can't see another reason for it other than trying to start something. Please stop.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: War History

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

ORIGINAL: War History

The game "Pacific War" (Grigsby SSI 1995) had it set up so there was a percentage chance from 70 to 90 (over 90 experience was a 100% chance) so 5% per experience point of using alternate ordinance. I wouldn't be surprised if this same formula made it into stock WitP, but I can not confirm this.

(I'll point out that in Pacific War, the Japanese got sig int rolls BTW. Players were allowed to target various bases and could do so multiple times to obtain more info on the base and yes if memory serves, the allies got 3 to 4 times the amount the Japanese got).

Well in Civilization, the barbarian hordes can appear without need of a city to spawn them from. Try and do that as the human player!

I guess I don't understand your point. Would this be an example of "trolling" that gets so many people banned from this forum? Because I can't see another reason for it other than trying to start something. Please stop.

No I think this is called humour. But its very subtle so take your time. [:'(]

[LoBaron]

I kinda agree with CT and Sardaukar.

70+ exp is a bit high when group exp is the governing value.

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I kinda agree with CT and Sardaukar.

70+ exp is a bit high when group exp is the governing value.

Indeed, quick fix would be to drop group exp to f. ex. 60, since even that is quite time-consuming to achieve and difficult to maintain.

Not that I have anything against how AE handles the pilots, having units with cadre of aces, lots of regular polots and assortment of rookies is realistic. And one can cleate sort of "Flying Circuses" by filling elite units with elite pilots. Just not that many units, so it's bit at odds with alternative/advanced bomb load feature.

[michaelm75au]

In addition, there is a 25% chance that the land-based Allied Heavy Bomber (with a normal payload of at least 3 x 500LB bombs), at normal or less range, will use the larger bomb (1000 or 2000lb'ers) in or after 1943 from a base with more supply than is required at the base.

I ran a test using one of the player saves that was from 1943 and set a couple of B-17 groups with a group experience of 70 & 71.
Out of the 5 replays of the turn, one or two attacks used the larger bombs. But the majority were with the 500lb'ers.

So the code does work in principle.
--------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Nauru Island at 129,125

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 10
B-17F Fortress x 10


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 6 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 4 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
DD Fujinami
BB Musashi



Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 5000 feet (5th BG/23rd BS / Seventh USAAF)
Naval Attack: 2 x 2000 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 5000 feet (11th BG/26th BS / Seventh USAAF)
Naval Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

[LoBaron]

Thank you for the clarification!

A very slight reduction of the exp level needed is a valid point though.
(to 65 maybe?)
Squad exp level is the way to go and it was a good idea, but with 70exp this
additional factor will only come into play under very extreme circumstances or,
as Sardaukar pointed out, if the player creates an elite squad by hand picking
veterans.
Is this intended?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I kinda agree with CT and Sardaukar.

70+ exp is a bit high when group exp is the governing value.

I agree also.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I kinda agree with CT and Sardaukar.

70+ exp is a bit high when group exp is the governing value.

Indeed, quick fix would be to drop group exp to f. ex. 60, since even that is quite time-consuming to achieve and difficult to maintain.

Not that I have anything against how AE handles the pilots, having units with cadre of aces, lots of regular polots and assortment of rookies is realistic. And one can cleate sort of "Flying Circuses" by filling elite units with elite pilots. Just not that many units, so it's bit at odds with alternative/advanced bomb load feature.

I don´t know how the routine looks like but in WITP it seemed the more experienced the squadrons, the bigger the bombs. Now if you need 70 average squadron exp to drop even 1000lb bombs in AE then this is more or less only possible if you create an elite squadron to drop bombs that were quite normal in real life. 1000lb bombs aren´t that much of an exceptional load. I´m not asking for 2000lb bombs dropped all the time, but a couple of 1000lb bombs would be quite nice.

To be honest, I don´t know if it makes a difference or if it isn´t even a disadvantage to drop 1000lb bombs because when looking at their effect, they´re nothing else than 2 500lb bombs and IIRC an official statement was that the damage at a base is calculated from what it hit. So 2 500lb bomb hits is nothing else than a 1000lb bomb hit. Attack with 1000lb bombs and you carry halve the load. Perhaps it´s just chrome in the end and nothing else.

Though if there is a reason behind this feature, then I would definately say the experience has to be lowered to make at least 1000lb bombs available for level bombers without having to mod the load outs.

[witpqs]

As I recall the great advantage for 1,000lb and 2,000lb bombs is when the LBA group is attacking ships, especially heavily armored ships like BB's and CA's.

[d0mbo]

1000lb will do a lot more damage to a ship because of the damage model, as I see it
penetration value < armor = only sys damage
penetration value > armor = ship in trouble

As a JFB I am against a change, but to be honest, all these 500lb bombs bouncing off doing hardly any damage is not realistic, so I support the lowering of needed experience for Allied bombers to drop >500lb bombs


Edit: what witpqs said, much faster [:D]

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Thank you for the clarification!

A very slight reduction of the exp level needed is a valid point though.
(to 65 maybe?)
Squad exp level is the way to go and it was a good idea, but with 70exp this
additional factor will only come into play under very extreme circumstances or,
as Sardaukar pointed out, if the player creates an elite squad by hand picking
veterans.
Is this intended?

When the overall experience levels were downgraded, I don't think anyone went through and lowered all the places that check the group experience.

I think that the expectation was that the groups would need to be trained up to match the old coded levels.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Thank you for the clarification!

A very slight reduction of the exp level needed is a valid point though.
(to 65 maybe?)
Squad exp level is the way to go and it was a good idea, but with 70exp this
additional factor will only come into play under very extreme circumstances or,
as Sardaukar pointed out, if the player creates an elite squad by hand picking
veterans.
Is this intended?

When the overall experience levels were downgraded, I don't think anyone went through and lowered all the places that check the group experience.

I think that the expectation was that the groups would need to be trained up to match the old coded levels.

I appreciate this last part, but it has become apparent that Experience just doesn't build up the way it did in WITP with so much advancement going to the specific skills in AE.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Thank you for the clarification!

A very slight reduction of the exp level needed is a valid point though.
(to 65 maybe?)
Squad exp level is the way to go and it was a good idea, but with 70exp this
additional factor will only come into play under very extreme circumstances or,
as Sardaukar pointed out, if the player creates an elite squad by hand picking
veterans.
Is this intended?

When the overall experience levels were downgraded, I don't think anyone went through and lowered all the places that check the group experience.

I think that the expectation was that the groups would need to be trained up to match the old coded levels.

but that´s where the problem for the players start. You CAN´T, at least not on a broad scale. All you can do is create flying circusses like Sardaukar said, taking out the 70+ exp crews to put them all into two or three squadrons. But that´s not realistic at all to create "special" squadrons to be able to drop 1000lb bombs. If we would go this way it would be like creating these British squadrons that were training to do attacks with Tallboys against Bismarck. But a Tallboy attack can hardly be compared with normal ground attacks with 1000lb bombs.

Like I´ve mentioned earlier, having squadrons with a total of several thousand missions and the average exp is around 65. These bomber squadrons have been bombing since day one of the war and are now in Nov 43. And experience is only going up due to missions, no chance to use the training mission, you will never reach 70 within the war using training so that´s not a possibility either. So, I think it should be definetely lowered because the expectation to train these groups up was a misinterpretation of how the game turns out IMO. Please don´t take this as a negative critism, I just think that if the feature is still there and the ppl in charge thought it should stay there, then the feature also should be changed to meet the new conditions in AE as you just can´t take WITP standard for AE.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Like I´ve mentioned earlier, having squadrons with a total of several hundred missions and the average exp is around 65. These bomber squadrons have been bombing since day one of the war and are now in Nov 43. And experience is only going up due to missions, no chance to use the training mission, you will never reach 70 within the war using training so that´s not a possibility either. So, I think it should be definetely lowered because the expectation to train these groups up was a misinterpretation of how the game turns out IMO. Please don´t take this as a negative critism, I just think that if the feature is still there and the ppl in charge thought it should stay there, then the feature also should be changed to meet the new conditions in AE as you just can´t take WITP standard for AE.

A reasonable request..., but I wouldn't hold my breath for implementation because it would only help the Allies. You can get a serious (sometimes heated) discussion going over even the most rediculous ideas if they will help Japan---but even a well documented and grounded idea that helps the Allies runs into the "But the Allies are going to win anyway" complaint. It's like the political situation some pundit commented on last night. All of the heat in this election has been about RIGHT vs. LEFT..., when what's important is RIGHT vs. WRONG".