Sorry, but this is wrong

[thewood1]

One of the issues I have is that the HCE scenario editor still won't run on a typical 64 bit machine. I mean if you are going to charge me a gain for a patch, at least get all the components to run on a modern machine.

[noguaranteeofsanity]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Maybe because it's happened before you've become desensitised to the pricing issue? I don't know.

I really haven't played enough of HCE to know if there are still bugs in it and I haven't played ANW at all to know...but there seems to be one particular guy who thinks there are still some major flaws in ANW. If he's right, to stop support and repackage the same bugged game and sell it telling people they'll get support if they repay is wrong.

I think I've finished here as I have no proof either way and no intention of re-buying a game to get support - like I said - if there are game bugs that need addressing and they will not be going forward, the method being used here is wrong

I don't think I have been desensitised to the pricing issue, although admittedly the Australian Dollar for the first time being worth more than the US dollar, certainly helped.

Also I lurked on the forums here for quite a while and think I know who you are referring to. There once was a thriving community of Harpooners, but which largely fell apart after numerous problems and I personally wouldn't listen to that guy.

Lastly it has also been my experienced that Matrix provide excellent support for their games and updates, long after the release. I also believe a lot of the bugs were addressed in the new Harpoon Ultimate, ANW edition.

[jomni]

I think it's not a real Matrix decision as they don't do this to all games.
This is the decision of the Harpoon developers (AGS) who have been doing this sort of thing since the beginning.

[Oliver Heindorf]

Being a old Harpoon 2002 customer and had only HP2 on the PC , I bought the last titel before this Harpoon thing joind Matrix.

Here is, for me, a good opportunity to grab the latest versions togehter.

fair ? this is business. compare to yourself.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
When a company sells a game it's expected it will be supported. The editions of HCE and ANW for Ultimate are the same as what was sold except with the latest patch. They've just been repackaged. They're not new editions or anything like that. Their age is really immaterial.

Free support was provided for 3-4 years. Regardless of when you purchased these titles, you benefited from that support in the form of updates. Because of how the market works, a new release is necessary periodically to keep a series from declining beyond the point where development is sustainable. We are providing free updates to previous owners to the Ultimate Edition releases, but free support will end there. I think 3-4 years of free post release support and updates is actually outstanding compared to most games and developers.

On top of that, the new release combines both previous releases and adds a discount coupon for existing customers to bring the price down to at or below that of a single release and your future support path now includes both releases for that price. The classic versions are effectively a bonus. Even if you have no interest in them, you still get the two newest release for the price of one and thus ensure continued development of the series. If you are a fan of Harpoon, I honestly don't see how we are asking too much here, or too often, or not offering enough in the package.

How about trying to be fair.

I don't think it would be fair to expect anyone to spend more than four years providing free support for a release without asking customers to chip in for future development. Selling products that previously sold for about $80 combined, along with the classic versions for a total of $10 also doesn't seem very fair to me. I think that asking for about $35 every four years or so to keep Harpoon going and offering a release that gives you more than twice as much bang for the buck as the last releases is not unfair.

I'm sorry you are disappointed, but I hope you will also see things from our point of view. We actually feel that this is a very good and reasonably priced release for both new customers and existing owners of Harpoon. We know that from the point of view of the development time that went into just this release, not to mention the previous years of updates, this is a fair deal.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Tony_A
I bought Gary Grisby's World at War only to see support dropped in favor of the updated "a world divided"

World at War was fully supported. A World Divided was the sequel and the features therein went well beyond an update. It had a full year of addiitonal development. No one who owned World at War was left hanging - that game was and is a great game that received updates and support after release, but it was aimed primarily at the retail market. A World Divided was our sequel to World at War aimed more at our own market.

I bought War in the Pacific only to see support dropped in favor of the Admiral's Edition.

Yes, after about four years of free support including about 25 updates (and there is one more still in the works, though it's coming along slowly), and after a development process that included dozens of man-years of effort, Admiral's Edition replaced War in the Pacific. As far as I know, everyone who owned War in the Pacific considered it one of the best bargains ever in gaming both in terms of the enjoyment per dollar and the amount of post-release support, which included major feature additions as well as many bug fixes.

I bought both of thier Harpoons only to see support dropped in favor of the Ultimate Edition.

And each of these also benefited from 3-4 years of free updates and additional development before the Ultimate Edition (which included another year plus of development into the making of it) was released. On top of that, we're providing the Ultimate Edition versions as the last free updates and we're offering an upgrade discount that gives you twice the value of the previous releases.

I really do understand how easy it is to think that we are just out for the money, but seriously how does fully supporting our games and eventually giving them sequels constitute anything but good support? I would think that continued activity in all of these games, including sequels and new releases as well as years of free updates would actually make most fans happy. If your favorite game receives no updates and no sequel releases, eventually it simply withers on the vine.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
No offense meant. But HCE is the exact same game I already own except for the patch. I already said that in the original post.
"The editions of HCE and ANW for Ultimate are the same as what was sold except with the latest patch."

If one is continuing development with the same game engine, by your definition every release after 1.00 is therefore a patch? There has to be a limit. A lot more work went into this release than just a patch and that's on top of years of free updates previously. I don't think you are really looking at this fairly. If we offered endless free updates simply because the base engine has things in common with older releases, we would be out of business. If we asked $10 for a release that took more than a year of development time, we'd be out of business. I think we've done as much as any publisher and developer reasonably can to make this release affordable and to make sure it is good value for the money after providing years of free support to the last releases.

Regards,

- Erik

[thewood1]

What's unusual about this is that you are paying for "possible" future updates, not to actually update the game you already own. IOW, I may pay the $35, but it might be two years before I see anything for it. Again, this references people who already own both games.

Not many companies charge you for something with basically no promise to deliver. So in the end, we people who own both games already, are only being delivered some older versions of the game.

Not saying I have any real problem with that, but it is different model than almost any other company out there.

[Erik Rutins]

I'm not sure anyone here was trying to make any distinction there. I can say that there will be post-release updates for Harpoon Ultimate Edition, it's not just "possible" it will happen.

Regards,

- Erik

[HercMighty]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins




I don't think it would be fair to expect anyone to spend more than four years providing free support for a release without asking customers to chip in for future development. Selling products that previously sold for about $80 combined, along with the classic versions for a total of $10 also doesn't seem very fair to me. I think that asking for about $35 every four years or so to keep Harpoon going and offering a release that gives you more than twice as much bang for the buck as the last releases is not unfair.


Regards,

- Erik

Erik,

The only problem here is that the support was issues or deficiencies in the product sold. We have every right to expect those to be corrected no matter how long it takes. No real change has been done to add anything new to the game. Matrix should have scoped this out better before agreeing to being the publisher, and any reworks to the code have been to correct errors or deficiencies that existed when people bought the product.

Now take AI War that just went from 3.0 to 4.0 and was a major overhaul to the graphics, code optimizations and bug fixes. And that was free to existing 3.0 players. I would have even paid for that. But this? I will vote with my wallet and even with the discount, no thanks.

[Scott_WAR]

I understand a new releaae is needed for funding,...but how about making it just that,...a NEW release,...and not a patch to an OLD (or in this case 2) game.

You want to get paid for a new release,.....make a new game.

The fact of the matter is IF it has taken so many years to get the game right it IS NOT the customers fault and they should not have to pay for it.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: HercMighty
The only problem here is that the support was issues or deficiencies in the product sold. We have every right to expect those to be corrected no matter how long it takes.

First, all complex games have bugs. H3ANW was buggy at release. Many, many updates over the course of years made major improvements. As of 3.9.4, I think it's working well. We are also providing 3.10 as a free update to owners of H3ANW on top of that.

No real change has been done to add anything new to the game.

That's not true. Improvements on Harpoon are evolutionary by nature rather than revolutionary. Continued improvements to the models to keep them up to date with the latest research and most realistic information from Bond and Carlson, an overhaul of the in-game art adding a whole new library of ship and plane art and addition of boarding actions to model the recent anti-piracy actions are among the improvements on the H3ANW side of this release.

Now take AI War that just went from 3.0 to 4.0 and was a major overhaul to the graphics, code optimizations and bug fixes. And that was free to existing 3.0 players. I would have even paid for that. But this? I will vote with my wallet and even with the discount, no thanks.

For H3ANW 3.10, the code was optimized, bugs were fixed, new features were added including a whole new library of improved ship and plane art. This will also be provided free to existing H3ANW customers, but it's also the basis for this new release. While AI War is based on a newer engine and has completely different goals as a RTS game, I don't see a lot of difference between our approaches on the base level. We improved the same areas, in addition to improving the underlying models which are one of the most important points for the naval warfare simulation community.

I think there's also a fundamental misunderstanding of how much it would cost to create a new Harpoon engine from the ground up and just replicate all the functionality and content that already exists in the current releases. It would cost much more than this market can support at this point, unfortunately. Evolutionary improvements through updates to the existing engines are the best way to keep Harpoon improving and relevant. Ultimately, these are simulations as much as games and the fidelity of the results and the comprehensiveness of the data and scenarios means more than a new underlying graphical engine would.

Regards,

- Erik

[boatrigm]

I think matrix has done great suppoting their games. Most game companies do not have much support after a few months. I have got my moneys worth and more from CE. I think a lot of us have gotten use to matrix long support cycle. Just look at other game companies before judging matrix so hard.

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: rich12545
When a company sells a game it's expected it will be supported. The editions of HCE and ANW for Ultimate are the same as what was sold except with the latest patch. They've just been repackaged. They're not new editions or anything like that. Their age is really immaterial.

Free support was provided for 3-4 years. Regardless of when you purchased these titles, you benefited from that support in the form of updates. Because of how the market works, a new release is necessary periodically to keep a series from declining beyond the point where development is sustainable. We are providing free updates to previous owners to the Ultimate Edition releases, but free support will end there. I think 3-4 years of free post release support and updates is actually outstanding compared to most games and developers.

On top of that, the new release combines both previous releases and adds a discount coupon for existing customers to bring the price down to at or below that of a single release and your future support path now includes both releases for that price. The classic versions are effectively a bonus. Even if you have no interest in them, you still get the two newest release for the price of one and thus ensure continued development of the series. If you are a fan of Harpoon, I honestly don't see how we are asking too much here, or too often, or not offering enough in the package.

How about trying to be fair.

I don't think it would be fair to expect anyone to spend more than four years providing free support for a release without asking customers to chip in for future development. Selling products that previously sold for about $80 combined, along with the classic versions for a total of $10 also doesn't seem very fair to me. I think that asking for about $35 every four years or so to keep Harpoon going and offering a release that gives you more than twice as much bang for the buck as the last releases is not unfair.

I'm sorry you are disappointed, but I hope you will also see things from our point of view. We actually feel that this is a very good and reasonably priced release for both new customers and existing owners of Harpoon. We know that from the point of view of the development time that went into just this release, not to mention the previous years of updates, this is a fair deal.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik, this is just a little misleading. The updates have been the result of volunteers. There is no Harpoon programmer being paid to improve the game. So MG is charging extra after getting the work for free.

You should go into politics, your post is really spin. Who put an arbitrary limit on how long to allow volunteers to improve the game before you start charging us again? Actually what's been happening is we've been getting mods that have been packaged by MG.

Look at TOAW. We're ready to get a huge update. That game is about as old as Harpoon. Are you going to start charging for future patches.

Charging $35 for future patches that are done by volunteers is a rip off. There's no other way to put it. If you want MG to start doing business that way there's nothing anyone can do about it. It's just sad seeing MG sinking so low after so many years of giving excellent service.

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
There is no Harpoon programmer being paid to improve the game.

Well, that's not strictly true. But the HC side is volunteers and most of ANW is. Read the links of my signature [8|].

[Nebogipfel]

I guess, everyone here is smart enough to recognize, that such complex games like Harpoon will allways have some couple of bugs and need more fine tuning as most other games do.

If the message would have been, we need money to guarantee further development of this game, I think most of us wouldn`t be so upset.

But that´s not the point. Above all, the customer once more is buying a buggy game, advertised as e "new" release, that is what people makes going crazy.

Simply most of us don´t believe, that things not being managed in years now will change over night.

Spend your money and everything will be great ? What kind of marketing is that ? [;)]

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: TonyE

ORIGINAL: rich12545
There is no Harpoon programmer being paid to improve the game.

Well, that's not strictly true. But the HC side is volunteers and most of ANW is. Read the links of my signature [8|].

Although I've purchased both I don't play ANW any more, just CE. All future patches will be done by volunteers. I believe I'm entitled to those patches without paying more for them especially since they're not costing MG anything. Charging extra is just a rip off. Sorry to be blunt but I don't know an easier way to say it.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Erik, this is just a little misleading. The updates have been the result of volunteers. There is no Harpoon programmer being paid to improve the game. So MG is charging extra after getting the work for free.

That is not true. Harpoon sales do go to fund development.

Look at TOAW. We're ready to get a huge update. That game is about as old as Harpoon. Are you going to start charging for future patches.

Note that we are not charging for the TOAW update, just as we haven't charged for other updates on many games over the years, despite years of future support. This is not an update, there are significant improvements, additional art and additional development time - which cost money - as well as many other expenses related to the organization and production of these titles.

Your example simply shows that it is in fact not our policy to charge for updates and that we do put customers first. However, we can't put you ahead of the future development or survival of a title. This is a business and despite your assumptions, it does cost money to continue to develop Harpoon - both the updates and the releases. The number of paid staff associated with Harpoon varies based on what the sales can support, but this is not a free product on the development side.

Similarly with TOAW, the reason that update is coming out is partly because the team that worked on it loves TOAW and partly because they have been funded by past royalties and will get future royalties from TOAW as well, which encourages continued development.

Frankly, I just don't understand how you think that we can indefinitely provide updates for a product that does have development cost in exchange for nothing. Even if the developer were working for nothing, which is not a policy we subscribe to (we welcome volunteers, as does AGSI, but we compensate them with royalties if not through payroll), it doesn't cost nothing to maintain everything else related to these releases.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Although I've purchased both I don't play ANW any more, just CE. All future patches will be done by volunteers. I believe I'm entitled to those patches without paying more for them especially since they're not costing MG anything. Charging extra is just a rip off. Sorry to be blunt but I don't know an easier way to say it.

I'm not privy to AGSI's internal arrangements, but I can say that HCE does not exist in a vacuum. Harpoon as a whole needs to be supported if any of it is going to continue.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel
If the message would have been, we need money to guarantee further development of this game, I think most of us wouldn`t be so upset.
But that´s not the point. Above all, the customer once more is buying a buggy game, advertised as e "new" release, that is what people makes going crazy.

I see enough value in the package as offered, which I've explained before, that this is not just a case of "give us more money". Yes, this will support further development of Harpoon, but we're selling a product which we feel is a good value and has had substantial additional development to make it worth the fairly low upgrade cost. If you disagree, that is your choice as a customer and I respect that. I might suggest that you give the upcoming free updates a try and see if you still feel the same way though.

Regards,

- Erik