Emergency Reinforcements--Bombardments

[Bullwinkle58]

Before commencing the final set of land invasions, I wanted to close the door on two other types of attacks (Bombardment, and Air) possible in the trigger zone to see if they alone would release emergency forces. I was almost sure they would not, but I wanted to make sure. If they did not, however, that might open up interesting tactical possibilities, especially in the non-North American trigger zones. This post reports the results of two types of Bombardment attacks on San Francisco.

Methodology--Test One:

1) Taking the large Japanese amphib TF sitting two hexes west of San Francisco, I split off a Bombardment TF, and sent them into SF. SF had been cleared of all aircraft, all ships, and all LCUs except the CD unit and the non-mobile base force. Bombardment range set to 10k. Escorts on Do Not Bombard.

Results:

1) Bombardment successful. Damage ashore accrued. CONUS/US/North American emergency reinforcements DID NOT trigger.
Naval bombardment of San Francisco at 218,70 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
39 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 3
CA Tone

Allied ground losses:
28 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 7 (2 destroyed, 5 disabled)

Airbase hits 29
Runway hits 75
Port hits 2

BB Kirishima firing at San Francisco
BB Hiei firing at San Francisco
CA Chikuma firing at SF Harbor Defenses
SF Harbor Defenses firing at CA Chikuma
CA Tone firing at San Francisco

OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Mar 15, 42
Coastwatcher Report: harbor at Perth is reported empty
No additional repairs possible on DD Rathburne
using currently assigned resources at Los Angeles
No additional repairs possible on SS KXV
using currently assigned resources at Soerabaja
Coastwatcher Report: harbor at Perth is reported empty
No additional repairs possible on DD Rathburne
using currently assigned resources at Los Angeles
No additional repairs possible on SS KXV
using currently assigned resources at Soerabaja
Ship Withdrawals: 2 overdue (40 Daily PP, 1240 Accumulated PP)
Group Withdrawals:
43 overdue (513 Daily PP, 13110 Accumulated PP)
Bateson, R.N. reassigned
AP Thomas Jefferson arrives at Balboa
xAK Cornish City arrives at Aden
No.77 Sqn RAAF arrives at Sydney as arrival base is unavailable


Methodology--Test Two:

1) Retired above TF to offshore Replenishment group, refueled.
2) Moved one Kingfisher squadron into SF.
3) Move a mixed-type Escort TF to SF from Mare Island. Mostly merchants, AVP, and AD. Disbanded about half, left rest in Escort TF, not Docked. Wanted to see if Bombardment group would attack any ships, and if such an attack, or loss of aircraft on ground, would trigger emergency reinforcements.
4) Reduced Min. bombardment range to 0, set Escorts Bombard. Took two cycles to get Bombardment group to attack disbanded ship.
5) Result was emergency reinforcements DID NOT trigger.
6) An aside. In the OPS Rpt below, NZ reinforcements are noted as being released. This is the North Island invasion reported yesterday. I re-used a save.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Mar 23, 42--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 9 encounters mine field at San Francisco (218,70)

Japanese Ships
DD Isokaze

2 mines cleared
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of San Francisco at 218,70

Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
CA Tone
DD Wakaba
DD Hatsushima
DD Akigumo

Allied Ships
xAP Kota Agoeng, Shell hits 1
Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1 (lost 17 supply)
Runway hits 46

BB Kirishima firing at SF Harbor Defenses
BB Hiei firing at San Francisco
CA Tone firing at San Francisco
DD Wakaba firing at San Francisco
DD Hatsushima firing at San Francisco
DD Akigumo firing at San Francisco

OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Mar 23, 42
Coastwatcher Report: harbor at Perth is reported empty
Coastwatcher sighting: 3 Japanese ships at 115,182 near Waipapakauri Speed unknown
No additional repairs possible on DD Rathburne
using currently assigned resources at Los Angeles
No additional repairs possible on SS KXV
using currently assigned resources at Soerabaja
Coastwatcher Report: harbor at Perth is reported empty
Coastwatcher sighting: 8 Japanese ships at 218,70 near San Francisco , Speed 6 , Moving East
No additional repairs possible on DD Rathburne
using currently assigned resources at Los Angeles
No additional repairs possible on SS KXV
using currently assigned resources at Soerabaja
Ship Withdrawals: 2 overdue (40 Daily PP, 1560 Accumulated PP)
Group Withdrawals:
43 overdue (513 Daily PP, 17214 Accumulated PP)
New Zealand invaded! Counter invasion forces released.
Bateson, R.N. reassigned

[Redd]

So the SF CD is basically worthless? Not what you were looking at but interesting nonetheless. Thanks for sharing by the way, thats what makes this place great![8D]

[JohnDillworth]

You are doing the Lord's work son.

[JohnDillworth]

You are doing the Lord's work son.

BTW that's not politics, it's religion, so don't lock the thread........Aw Crap, I am just going to ignore myself. Wait, wait, I pressed the green button on myself and NOW I AM BLIND!

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

You are doing the Lord's work son.

BTW that's not politics, it's religion, so don't lock the thread........Aw Crap, I am just going to ignore myself. Wait, wait, I pressed the green button on myself and NOW I AM BLIND!

Even with those big dark eyes? [8D]

BTW this guy Bateson is very popular, it seems. He's showed up in every AAR that Bullwinkle has showed us.

[JohnDillworth]

BTW this guy Bateson is very popular, it seems. He's showed up in every AAR that Bullwinkle has showed us.

I know, Poor guy was probably just waiting to go. If anything a-historical happened he gets the call. Just sat around waiting the whole war, died broke and penniless. Always shed a tear when his son asked: What did you do in the war daddy?" almost.......almost

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

You are doing the Lord's work son.

BTW that's not politics, it's religion, so don't lock the thread........Aw Crap, I am just going to ignore myself. Wait, wait, I pressed the green button on myself and NOW I AM BLIND!

[:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Redd

So the SF CD is basically worthless? Not what you were looking at but interesting nonetheless. Thanks for sharing by the way, thats what makes this place great![8D]

Whoops! Sorry. forgot to put in Methodology that I put fixed CD unit On Reserve (no pursuit.) SF still has about 300 mines, and I was afraid they plus big CD response would cripple the Bombardment test. I would NOT take these results as indicating the Japanese can sail into SF Bay unmolested.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

You are doing the Lord's work son.

Every once in awhile you have to take that OCD out for a walk, ya know? [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Pascal

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

You are doing the Lord's work son.

BTW that's not politics, it's religion, so don't lock the thread........Aw Crap, I am just going to ignore myself. Wait, wait, I pressed the green button on myself and NOW I AM BLIND!

Even with those big dark eyes? [8D]

BTW this guy Bateson is very popular, it seems. He's showed up in every AAR that Bullwinkle has showed us.

Yeah, he's in one of those Infinite Reass loops that started happening after Patch 2 I think. It's harmless. I had some guy named Mullins reassign himself for eight weeks when I started my current CG game.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Redd

So the SF CD is basically worthless? Not what you were looking at but interesting nonetheless. Thanks for sharing by the way, thats what makes this place great![8D]

Whoops! Sorry. forgot to put in Methodology that I put fixed CD unit On Reserve (no pursuit.) SF still has about 300 mines, and I was afraid they plus big CD response would cripple the Bombardment test. I would NOT take these results as indicating the Japanese can sail into SF Bay unmolested.

OK, this was easy to do since I have a boatload of saves. I re-ran it with the CD unit on Combat.

Methodology:

1) Returned to save before first SF bombardment test. No aircraft or ships present in SF. Split off same combatants into Bombardmant TF. Min bombardment range 0, Escorts Bombard to "on".

2) Switched the SF CD unit to Combat, the same for the base force. Did not change COs. Turned replacements "on" although that won't matter on the run. SF has had no forts building since the beginning. Airfield at 9(9), Port at 10(7), Forts at 0(9).

3) Ran the bombardment. Different randoms than last time, but it should be directionally correct. The CD results were, to put it mildly for a really major Allied port, underwhelming.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Mar 16, 42--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of San Francisco at 218,70 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

81 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 4
CA Tone
DD Isokaze
DD Akigumo


Allied ground losses:
36 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Airbase hits 9
Runway hits 19
Port hits 1

BB Kirishima firing at San Francisco
BB Hiei firing at San Francisco
CA Chikuma firing at SF Harbor Defenses
SF Harbor Defenses firing at CA Chikuma
CA Tone firing at San Francisco
SF Harbor Defenses firing at DD Isokaze
DD Isokaze firing at SF Harbor Defenses
DD Akigumo firing at San Francisco

Conclusions:

1) I have been told, in PM exchanges with another veteran player, that PBEM players routinely do not fortify the WC bases. This seems to be a mistake to me. Although a high fort level would not have mattered much here, with a 10-BB and 10-CA bombardment group the difference might have been significant. Also, Allies should not count on CD to forestall a WC LCU landing in 1942.

2) More than 300 mines at SF would seem to be prudent.

3) Moving in some mobile CD the same.

4) Since Bombardment does not trigger reinforcements, a large Bombardment raid, if not at SF then perhaps San Diego or Sea-Tac, could, with a very large number of ships disbanded or in the yards, result in significant losses. The same for aircraft losses had I had 10-15 training groups or groups readied for deployment at SF airfield as I routinely do in a real game.

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Conclusions:

1) I have been told, in PM exchanges with another veteran player, that PBEM players routinely do not fortify the WC bases. This seems to be a mistake to me. Although a high fort level would not have mattered much here, with a 10-BB and 10-CA bombardment group the difference might have been significant. Also, Allies should not count on CD to forestall a WC LCU landing in 1942.

2) More than 300 mines at SF would seem to be prudent.

3) Moving in some mobile CD the same.

4) Since Bombardment does not trigger reinforcements, a large Bombardment raid, if not at SF then perhaps San Diego or Sea-Tac, could, with a very large number of ships disbanded or in the yards, result in significant losses. The same for aircraft losses had I had 10-15 training groups or groups readied for deployment at SF airfield as I routinely do in a real game.

In my experience return fire from CD guns is extremely random. I'm pretty sure that if you run the same setup several times, and maybe change some factors a bit (different leader, different weather/moonlight), you would get all kinds of results varying from "complete annihilation of Japanase TF" to "no damage to ships at all".

If a Japanese player is willing to risk his entire TFs for a naval bombardment of SF, he's welcome to do so. The next friendly port couldn't be farther away...

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Conclusions:

1) I have been told, in PM exchanges with another veteran player, that PBEM players routinely do not fortify the WC bases. This seems to be a mistake to me. Although a high fort level would not have mattered much here, with a 10-BB and 10-CA bombardment group the difference might have been significant. Also, Allies should not count on CD to forestall a WC LCU landing in 1942.

2) More than 300 mines at SF would seem to be prudent.

3) Moving in some mobile CD the same.

4) Since Bombardment does not trigger reinforcements, a large Bombardment raid, if not at SF then perhaps San Diego or Sea-Tac, could, with a very large number of ships disbanded or in the yards, result in significant losses. The same for aircraft losses had I had 10-15 training groups or groups readied for deployment at SF airfield as I routinely do in a real game.

In my experience return fire from CD guns is extremely random. I'm pretty sure that if you run the same setup several times, and maybe change some factors a bit (different leader, different weather/moonlight), you would get all kinds of results varying from "complete annihilation of Japanase TF" to "no damage to ships at all".

If a Japanese player is willing to risk his entire TFs for a naval bombardment of SF, he's welcome to do so. The next friendly port couldn't be farther away...

Go bombard Vladivostock and then tell me that CD gun return fire is rare. When I did that and invaded by sea, I ended up losing around 2 dozen ships (including 2 BBs and 3 CA/CLs) to CD fire. What it comes down to is that Vladivostock has quite a few 356mm guns...size matters!

[VSWG]

I've never said that return fire is rare, I'm arguing that the results vary widely without any explanation except (IMO) random numbers.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

In my experience return fire from CD guns is extremely random. I'm pretty sure that if you run the same setup several times, and maybe change some factors a bit (different leader, different weather/moonlight), you would get all kinds of results varying from "complete annihilation of Japanase TF" to "no damage to ships at all".

If a Japanese player is willing to risk his entire TFs for a naval bombardment of SF, he's welcome to do so. The next friendly port couldn't be farther away...

OK, I ran it again. Same ships, same Combat settings. SF CD has only one available CO; there are no options. This is the unit itself. (picture below) It is fully-supplied, not tired, with moderate training.

The results on this run were even worse for the Allies. Not even one hit on a Japanese ship:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Mar 15, 42--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Naval bombardment of San Francisco at 218,70

Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
CA Chikuma
CA Tone
DD Isokaze
DD Akigumo

Allied ground losses:
108 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 7 (2 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 11 (2 destroyed, 9 disabled)

Airbase hits 19
Airbase supply hits 5 (lost 211 supply)
Runway hits 57
Port hits 1

BB Kirishima firing at San Francisco
BB Hiei firing at San Francisco
CA Chikuma firing at San Francisco
CA Tone firing at San Francisco
DD Isokaze firing at San Francisco
DD Akigumo firing at San Francisco

---------------------------------------------------

I agree that a raid woud be a risk, but there are potentially large rewards to the Japanese player who catches his opponent assuming there will never be a WC raid. (you know what they say about "assume".)

In the early months after PH, if that attack goes well, Midway could be taken, providing a fuel stop for a raiding force. With the KB standing back to LRCAP, a heavy surface force could get at Seattle or San Diego with a fraction of the risk associated with SF. The Allies have virtually no offensive power on the WC in those months. Most is sunk at Pearl, or in the PI or DEI. The subs are worthless yet. The aircraft have low training and a lot of Bolos and Texans.

I think we could see some WC raids with good returns from some of our more daring PBEM players. Even if the Japanese lost, say, an old BB and a CA, would it be worth it to take out 3-4 tankers, maybe 25 xAKs, 60-100 trainer aircraft, and shut down the airfield? Not to mention the pucker factor?

[VSWG]

Back in the WitP days, there were some Japanese players who bombarded Singapore with large TFs. Some players bombarded the place with no damage at all to their ships. The next player lost the entire TF... No one knew why the results varied so wildy.

The results are in my experience so unpredictable that the risk is IMO just too high. As I said, maybe, with just a bit more moonlight, or a different detection level of the bombardment TF, or some changes to a completely different but important factor that no one except the coders know about, the same TF will get annihilated.

[Bullwinkle58]

OK, I ran it a third time. Same ships, same set-up ashore. I moved 13 air units, eight of them Bolos, the rest Hudsons, Stearmans, O-47A, and Cats into SF airfield. I ordered every ship in the Bay area to SF on the bombardment turn. Most made it, except the subs, whcih were at sea during the attack and attacked the Japanese ships.

Note that this was 3% moonlight, and Thunderstorms. OTOH, I did not order the IJN BB planes to Recon SF. But a lesson might be to raid in bad weather in the early war.

The results were, again, abysmal for the Allies. No hits. Lots of sunken ships. Also fair number of Fires for strat VP damage considering the small number of Japanese capital ships.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Mar 15, 42--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near San Francisco at 218,70, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
DD Akigumo
DD Isokaze

Allied Ships
AP Crescent City, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Alcoa Prospector, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
xAP Tabinta, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
AVD Mackinac, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk


Reduced visibility due to Thunderstorms with 3% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms and 3% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
Yamaguchi, Jihei crosses the 'T'
BB Kirishima engages xAK Alcoa Prospector at 2,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages AP Crescent City at 2,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages xAK Alcoa Prospector at 2,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages xAP Tabinta at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
BB Hiei engages xAP Tabinta at 4,000 yards
BB Hiei engages xAP Tabinta at 4,000 yards
xAK Alcoa Prospector sunk by BB Hiei at 4,000 yards
DD Isokaze engages AP Crescent City at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages AP Crescent City at 3,000 yards
AP Crescent City sunk by DD Akigumo at 3,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages AVD Mackinac at 3,000 yards
xAP Tabinta sunk by BB Kirishima at 3,000 yards
AVD Mackinac sunk by DD Isokaze at 3,000 yards
AVD Mackinac sunk by DD Isokaze at 3,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near San Francisco at 218,70, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
DD Akigumo
DD Isokaze

Allied Ships
YMS-94, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
YMS-95, Shell hits 3, and is sunk


Reduced visibility due to Thunderstorms with 0% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms and 0% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
YMS-94 sunk by BB Kirishima at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
YMS-95 sunk by DD Isokaze at 4,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near San Francisco at 218,70

Japanese Ships
CA Tone
DD Akigumo
DD Isokaze

Allied Ships
SS Silversides

SS Silversides launches 6 torpedoes at CA Tone
Silversides bottoming out ....
DD Isokaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Isokaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of San Francisco at 218,70 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
PBY-5A Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground

29 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
CA Chikuma
CA Tone
DD Isokaze
DD Akigumo

Allied ground losses:
68 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (2 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 21 (5 destroyed, 16 disabled)


Manpower hits 1
Resources hits 1
Fires 275
Airbase hits 31
Airbase supply hits 3 (lost 81 supply)
Runway hits 120
Port hits 4

BB Kirishima firing at San Francisco
BB Hiei firing at San Francisco
CA Chikuma firing at San Francisco
CA Tone firing at SF Harbor Defenses
SF Harbor Defenses firing at CA Tone
DD Isokaze firing at San Francisco
DD Akigumo firing at San Francisco

[JohnDillworth]

Surprising results to say the least. Not one hit by a CD gun? I've seen the location of those batteries. They could not miss. I can't figure out why they put starfleet headquarters there in the future if it is that indefensible. All kidding aside, anyone who has been there would tell you, can't miss

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Surprising results to say the least. Not one hit by a CD gun? I've seen the location of those batteries. They could not miss. I can't figure out why they put starfleet headquarters there in the future if it is that indefensible. All kidding aside, anyone who has been there would tell you, can't miss

All I can guess is 3%--0% moonlight, and thunderstorms. Ships move, land doesn't.

[vettim89]

What is the EXP and Morale for the CD unit at SF just out of curiosity? If this is typical, then its sad that the game makes the Saipan Naval Fortress a ship killer while the US units are virtually useless. On the other hand I know that straying into range of Correigidor makes bad things happen to the Japanese. I'm going to go look up what was at or near SF in WWII just out of curisosity.