frustations

[bhutnath]

The new change in this release which allows returning planes to combat is extremely frustrating as more than 60% of my losses are to enemy planes on RTB. The problem seems to be that if any escort remains behind the bomber even if bingo fuel and RTB all squadrons attacking the bombers when they disengage will fly by the escorts (rtb-ing) and get massacred.

The problem is compounded by the fact that the game plays essentially in 2d. Where fighters return home at insane altitudes. For instance a me110 rtb will do so at 25k+ rather than diving down to more appropriate alt, in turn running into any escorts that may have fallen behind the main force due to being engaged earlier by german fighters. Net result 15 shot down out of 35 where as in combat none were lost (with 7+ kills).

This is compounded by the fact that patrols love chasing off lone recon plans making it painful to move intercepting squadrons around to 'dodge' the incoming recon!

I find the RTB escorts in 1943 FAR more dangerous than those with fuel.

P47 are getting almost their entire kills running into german squadrons. (this is even if the German planes still have fuel and p47 are RTB due to bingo fuel post engagement)

I find this change regressive and think that planes that are rtb should not engage in combat unless engaged by another.
Not just because I am suffering at their hands but it doesn't make sense and the fact that aircrafts don't dive away to escape meaning planes will always fight if they come close to each other.

[Hard Sarge]

overall, I would have to say, I am not sure what you are talking about or seeing, what you are saying is happening, shouldn't be happening, the way you say, or see it

Harley spent a lot of work on getting the AI to not chase recon planes, I just ran two turns, and plotted a number of recon planes in and around my raids, and none of the enemy planes even bothered with them

planes, in combat, after combat, do not all fly at the same alt, if you check them, you will see them at all areas of alt, also, there are "rules" in effect, on when planes can even spot each other, let alone, make a attack on them

plus, the AI pilot makes most of his choices based on his fuel state, so, when these planes are RTB, they are not Bingo fuel, they still have fuel to work with

if you can give me more details on what you are seeing, I will try and see what is going on, from reading most of your statements, I think it is more a issue of tactics, then of game system error

[Nicholas Bell]

I can confirm that planes headed toward their patrol point will break off elements to chase recon planes they cannot catch in BTR.  I always use the patrol function to position interceptors and only issue intercept commands when they are within a 5-8 miles of the intended target raid, so I have a lot of patrols in the air.  I usually go through the hassle of id'ing the recon raid, finding the intercepts and calling them off.  Often times they immediately go back to chasing the recon plane which is closer than their patrol point - at which time the only way to stop them is to issue a manual intercept command.  It is not a matter of them not having enough fuel either, as other units from the same airfield or farther make it to the patrol point.  It just seems a random event that happens all too frequently. Now I could see the reason for a patrol breaking off to engage a recon they could actually engage, but the problem occurs when the recon planes are above the LW fighters ceiling and maximum speed.

Since I am playing both sides, I usually schedule my recons so they are not in the air at the same time as the raid.  Since they pretty much immune to German interceptors their is no need to attempt to sneak them in with the raid like in ED.  Admittedly this is not very realistic, but it is a work-around to avoid the frustration of this problem.  Similar to having to simply not intercept the "return to target" raids affected with that bug.

[bhutnath]

The engagement is typically of this nature- say intercepting a typhoon raid (150+) escorted by 200 odd spitfires. 90 fw190a5 intercepting the spits... invariable the raid gets spread out in a line. Then as they begin to RTB the 190's bases become behind their line of travel. Once they are out of fuel they could continue flying back in similar line as the raid ... bam half a squadron or more lost by being bounced on the their way back - this is not an exception but the rule.

When you combine this with the fact that about 70% of the bounces by german fighters results only in damages and more than 60% of allied bounces result in kills the exchange gets heavily tilted in the allies favor. As an experiment I threw more than 10 squadrons of me109 (300) on a single group of p47 (40+) - I got 10 damaged and 1 kill and took 8 kills in return! I have tried direct fighter and bounce with marginal difference. Most of these kills happen when German planes RTB.

In another recent turn, my Me109 intercepted an raid while being send to patrol a location on the map (wit the intention of using it against a different raid). Almost as soon as the icon changed from light green to dark, I asked it to RTB.. bam and instant bounce and 3 fighter shot down. I find it better to let planes persist in fights than to RTB this is true for twin engines and like of fw190f also. The losses German aircrafts take on RTB exceeds what they would if they were to fight!

Another point of irritation is -
patrols cannot be set on troops in Italy making it impossible to defend.
In winters (starting october) allied day bombers can bomb in early hours of the morning when the light is still below 30% (often no more than 20) and therefore escape interception (low vis little intercept by 109) and take marginal damage from aaa (day raid - average 10 bombers damaged at medium alt, early morning - 1-2 damaged) but still achieve precision strikes against troops and industries from 20+k.

Any ways, I came across a post on this forum mentioning that the allies will break though the german lines on historic dates even if German troops and rail is not bombed. If this is true then Germany will be conquered no matter what. Is it even possible to win this game from the German side in PBEMs?? AI sucks so you can bring the points below the required to continue in game, but that is not possible against an human opponent. Wondering I am spending months in a game where there is no change by design to win?

[bhutnath]

oh I forgot to mention that often the 'bouncing' allied fighters are the ones with red icon. I understand that red doesn't necessarily mean out of fuel but then why do some of the other squadron also rtb-ing don't go red?

[Hard Sarge]

for winning, the Axis chance to win s the sudden death rules, you have to defeat the Allied Air Force, and not let it defeat you, and it works for either human or ai enemy, can be much HARDer vs a human

if the Allies make it to the breakout in France and still have enough of a edge in score, yeap, the Axis don't really have a chance (which, was the case)

the lock down for OVERLORD is what really hurts the Allies and gives the Axis there chance to win, vs a human, they can bypass the rules a bit, so again, makes it HARDer

for your combat, I would still have to say, that is more to tactics, then to game, you got the Axis bases too close to the front, remember, there was no such thing, as fair play, that is what the pilots on both sides were looking for, any chance to get he other guy, at better odds,

in the MED, yea, it is HARD to defend the coast/front line, for not being able to patrol, the troops, I would think that is the troops are on the front line, and you can only patrol so close to the front line, the take off delay's in the MED are murder, and it was that way in real life, the Allies could be over top of a Axis airfield, before the Axis even knew they were in the air, it was very dangerous, to take of or to land, and remember, though out most of the fighting covered in the game, the Allies had total AS over this area, most Axis air missions were at night for the Off, and a lot of the seen, 109s that were attacked, or chased, were really recon birds

for the red and non-red, returning to base, would say the non-red are finished with there mission, and returning, as you longer and longer ranges for the fighters, some will run missions that will not run them out of fuel (P-51s to the Rhur)

[bhutnath]

sudden death - isn' that where the total points for the allies have to be less than the number of months played? So at the end of 300 turns (10 months) the allies must have less than 20 points??

Has ANY ONE ever won a PBEM 1943 campaign as German? I am sorry but if there is no REAL chance for German's to win as per game rules, then really there is no game to be played here.

[bhutnath]

and Sarge,
it is not the take of time that's killing me as I have enough force up in the air and as close to the troops as game allows. But it is simply not possible to intercepts raids. Besides this the main pain is that the likse of b17s find and hit targets with 15% light making a mockery of interceptors and AAA.

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: bhutnath

sudden death - isn' that where the total points for the allies have to be less than the number of months played? So at the end of 300 turns (10 months) the allies must have less than 20 points??

Has ANY ONE ever won a PBEM 1943 campaign as German? I am sorry but if there is no REAL chance for German's to win as per game rules, then really there is no game to be played here.

Hi bhutnath,

I'm not sure what other games you play, but one of the very popular titles on Matrix Games is War in the Pacific AE. It uses almost an identical system where by the Axis (Japanese) can only win by achieving a certian point advantage over the allies prior to a particular date. Although the BEST chance for the axis to win in EDTBTR is to during or before the Normandy "breakout" stage it is technically possible to win at any point in the game after the first few months.

I mention WITP AE, because in those forums you will see almost everyone plays with a philosophy that winning for the axis means doing better than historically. I think thats a good philosophy to apply here too - If you put up a real fight in the air until the dying days, thats a win for you.

Ultimately the Axis never did have a chance of winning, at least not during the period of this game. Thats a reality you will have to face with any strategy game based around WWII. Sorry.

Theoretically you can slow the ground war down much longer than historical. The break out dates are pretty much historically accurate, but the rate of retreat from one defensive line to the next is not. I believe the final defensive line is the Rhine....so if the retreat from there was sufficiently slow you could probably add a few weeks or even months to the game. Of course this does not mean defending only the ground units but all supporting industry (Rubber, Armaments, Steel, etc.) and transport and urban areas (getting supply to the troops is as important as the strength of the units.)
Thats a pretty tall order though, late in the war.

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: bhutnath
and Sarge,
it is not the take of time that's killing me as I have enough force up in the air and as close to the troops as game allows. But it is simply not possible to intercepts raids.

It might be a bug. You cant place patrols even over your own troops, but if you get your units engaged with the egressing bombers from deeper targets, they might follow them just a few miles away from the closest Allied South Italian airfield, that is, those ones in Napoli and North to it.

Knowing that bombing ground forces usually has only small effect and anyways near 0 on the progress of the war, probably bombing supply lines has much greater effect, its not so bad, though. What is worse is when one of your 109s get shot down directly over Calais, pilot getting captured. [8D]