Synth builds with oil rule

[michaelbaldur]

maybe just me ...but I can´t find any El Agheila city/port on the Mwif map ???? 

[paulderynck]

There were two added counters for Italy and CW to build synth plants (actually more likely develop oil finds) in Libya and Kuwait respectively.

Edit: Hmmm, without El Agheila on the map, I wonder where you'd place the Synth plant??

Edit again: Maybe the extra data on those two gives the MWiF coordinates they arrive in?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver
I guess USSR doesn't normally have much oil to bank pre-war due to resource short from Nazi-Soviet pact right? Just the odd half from not need it due to rounding.

And once you are in trouble w/ USSR it might be hard to squeeze one out so building it early gives you more oil banked pre-war, and smoother production rather than waiting a year for it once you're in trouble.

I'm not arguing btw because honestly I'm not sure what the best course is - just trying to weigh all the possibilities.

For CW, I guess the reason to build it first turn in Scotland would be to make an easier convoy war, but building it in Canada I guess makes sense if you can't run a single CP to Burma. Hm.

Neutral major powers can only save one oil per turn. I have never seen USSR build a synth plant. With their low production multiplier early on, they need the troops far more than the oil - which will not pay back even its own cost until much much later.

I don't think the CW Synth can be placed in Canada. Only units labelled "Can" come on in Canada, "In" for India, etc. OTOH it is a marker, not a unit, so this may be a grey area. Anyway, I'd build it in England - if I did build it - to provide an extra resource for turns when sub warfare puts a hurt on the CW.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

maybe just me ...but I can´t find any El Agheila city/port on the Mwif map ???? 

This is normal, this is not a city nor a port. This is a labelled location in Libya.

[morgil]

My 2 cc..
Italy would benefit from a oilwell, but with low income, and fairly insecure placing it would be much better to persuade Germany to make one, and maybe chip in a few BPs. Though in a good campaign you will see Germany giving more to Italy than the other way around.

Synth Oil plant in London would be marvelous, but when can you afford such a grand cost ? Maybe just as France is falling, and its plain there will be no Sea Lion..

China could benefit greatly, but the only time they have the spare BP would be if Japan was not actively fighting them. That usually happens so late in the game that its not worth the cost.

USSR does not have the resources to build one pre Barbarossa, and if you should need one later in the game and can't have it lendt from allies, you have most likely lost already.

A Free Frenc oilwell would be cool, but if your friends lend you the BP you would first get a Factory, so you could get actual units to fight.

The US could potentially build one, and make it pay off. Like if you got a lucky chit draw and got an early Gear up, you could build it on that first turn. It would be one more oil to ship to allies built in a safe spot. However its one carrier less so...

Germany is one country that should really consider getting one, at day one too if you are feeling lucky in France. Just make sure you build it in Berlin (11.7 Strat bombing target priority). Getting two might be overdoing it, if you are unlucky in Russia you will need it, but would be hard pressed to afford it, if you are lucky in Russia, you probably wont need it. So if Barbarossa grinds to a halt without much loss, you should consider it.

Japan really needs the synth oil in the later stages of the war, and should probably get one early 1940 to maximice the BP return, built in Tokyo. Second Synth plant depends a bit on whatever goes on in the game really, if you can afford one in 41-42, it would be nice to have it, but like with the US, its one less carrier..

[brian brian]

yes for the Russians I would only build it when a lot of western BPs are coming in and Baku is going to be lost.

for the CW, I noticed recently that (according to the rules) they can maintain a connection to Burma by a convoy line to Archangel while the USSR is at war with Germany. completely silly.

I learned about building a SYNTH for the CW during a Sea Lion death struggle that was drawing in the US Army as fast as their units came off the production spiral. The western powers were using their HQs in every sort of way, including to re-org FTRs during land impulses trying to stop the Luftwaffe and were generally burning up oil at amazing rates. (Russia had crumpled back to Asia after a very long and sunny pair of summers).

at the end of the game, some players say the USA & CW never have enough oil. others say they never run out. this might depend on how many units you build vs how many offensive chits you build (and O-Chits are a way to turn BPs back into oil by re-organizing all of your HQs). so their SYNTH plant or Kuwait oil-field decisions can vary.

I like how World in Flames gravitates the players towards the Middle East....

[jjdenver]

So would a Brit oil in London or in Glasgow make the most sense if you are planning worst case - Sealion?

[jjdenver]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
yes for the Russians I would only build it when a lot of western BPs are coming in and Baku is going to be lost.

Imagine that you expect a 42, not a 41 Barbarossa. Then if you save 1 BP on SO39 and build the Soviet Synth for 9 BP on ND 39 it will produce the following (assuming USSR is resource-poor until war and is trying to save 1 oil each turn while neutral into Sevastopol, Leningrad, Archangelsk, Murmansk, Rostov, Urals, etc).
ND 40 .5
JF 41 .5
MA 41 .5
MJ 41 .5
JA 41 .5
SO 41 .5
ND 41 .5
JF 42 1
MA 42 1 (Barbarossa begins MA or MJ 42)

So that's a total of 9 spent, and 5.5 returned by the time of war. It doesn't seem that bad as a tradeoff to be down 3.5 BP and have a synth to use throughout the East Front battles in 42/43/44.

Does that make sense? Am I missing something?

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

The single biggest problem, to me, is that the Germans will get to see this build, and see you spiking your gearing and spending all that money on the synth. I know I'd switch my plans around for a 41 Barb at that point, barring something else that seems like a bigger opportunity. (But I'll admit, I tend to like the 41 barb anyway.)


As for the sealion, not really. The Germans can start ferrying guys into Britain frighteningly fast.It was a game I saw, not one I played,  but the CW went in for a lot of side stuff, Portugal, Iraq, big BEF. So the Germans landed in and started wrecking the place before France fell, since the home islands defenses were stripped, with the para and starting amph. Again, if I'm really afraid of a sealion, I want blitz capable units, mils, and as many fighters as I can get into the air.

The time that I'd really want a synth as the CW is if I somehow knew that the main German strategy would be a massive sub war, and trying to slice up my production.

[brian brian]

The Russians should never build a Synth before Barbarossa. Whether it gains you 0.5 BPs/turn depends on how many Axis Minor Allies have been activated as a result of German decisions which changes how many resources go to Germany. The Russians need land units, not extra resources. Though despite that thought, the Allies should try to play US Entry option 19 as soon as possible if a 1941 Barbarossa is on the way so they can send Russia an oil from the Middle East on the turns where it does gain a BP for the USSR.

Ditto for the CW before Sea Lion. It's better to build units. In fact I think this is true for all powers except the USA. Counter densities are very low in 39-41 and the units you build accomplish a lot.

For the CW and USSR all I'm saying is that circumstances in the middle of the game can _sometimes_ be that it makes sense to build a SYNTH plant.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The Russians should never build a Synth before Barbarossa. Whether it gains you 0.5 BPs/turn depends on how many Axis Minor Allies have been activated as a result of German decisions which changes how many resources go to Germany. The Russians need land units, not extra resources. Though despite that thought, the Allies should try to play US Entry option 19 as soon as possible if a 1941 Barbarossa is on the way so they can send Russia an oil from the Middle East on the turns where it does gain a BP for the USSR.

Ditto for the CW before Sea Lion. It's better to build units. In fact I think this is true for all powers except the USA. Counter densities are very low in 39-41 and the units you build accomplish a lot.

For the CW and USSR all I'm saying is that circumstances in the middle of the game can _sometimes_ be that it makes sense to build a SYNTH plant.

This probably goes in the USSR AI discussion thread; however, I wholly agree, never build a synth before Barbarossa.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The Russians should never build a Synth before Barbarossa. Whether it gains you 0.5 BPs/turn depends on how many Axis Minor Allies have been activated as a result of German decisions which changes how many resources go to Germany. The Russians need land units, not extra resources. Though despite that thought, the Allies should try to play US Entry option 19 as soon as possible if a 1941 Barbarossa is on the way so they can send Russia an oil from the Middle East on the turns where it does gain a BP for the USSR.

Ditto for the CW before Sea Lion. It's better to build units. In fact I think this is true for all powers except the USA. Counter densities are very low in 39-41 and the units you build accomplish a lot.

For the CW and USSR all I'm saying is that circumstances in the middle of the game can _sometimes_ be that it makes sense to build a SYNTH plant.

That is the key point to this whole discussion. Since the US is forced to be neutral, building a synthetic oil plant has reasonable ROI (return on investment). Japan and Germany probably need the oil desperately enough to warrant their builds. But for the others, units on the map have a higher ROI.

[composer99]

I should note that in the tabletop WiF game, the Italian synth oil in Libya is given a specific hex number in which it appears, which corresponds to the El Agheila hex in MWiF.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: composer99

I should note that in the tabletop WiF game, the Italian synth oil in Libya is given a specific hex number in which it appears, which corresponds to the El Agheila hex in MWiF.

Yes. We (well, Patrice does and I agree) like to assign names to hexes that are important, although we haven't done that for every resource on the map.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: composer99

I should note that in the tabletop WiF game, the Italian synth oil in Libya is given a specific hex number in which it appears, which corresponds to the El Agheila hex in MWiF.

Yes. We (well, Patrice does and I agree) like to assign names to hexes that are important, although we haven't done that for every resource on the map.

I would have, but I not always found a suitable name.
But I'm open to proposals for resources that I could not name.