"Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

[briantopp]

Here is another build of this scenario. Very grateful for any comments.

New:

I've tried to implement new Axis infantry TO&Es consistent with the "wave" information and AT issues discussed above.

Broke out sicherung divisions into their component units and tried to rejig the Axis PO orders so that it garrisons its rear area more effectively.

Corrected 29-motorised corps designation. Corrected some artillery units.

Revisited equipment editor to tweak equipment transitions. Tweaked relative supply balances.

To come:

Very interesting discussion of pz TO&Es above. I'm going to post my interpretation of it and see if it makes sense before trying to implement it.

[briantopp]

So I last looked at these TO&Es a looong time ago. Here is what the scenario currently has, and what I can make of the discussion above so far:

Current aufklarungs (scout) and kradschutzen (motorcycle) units (basically, I averaged them, and use different unit symbols. very unsatisfactory):

27 motorcycle
6 engineer
16 sdkfz 231-6
6 MMG
6 37mm AT
6 50mm AT
2 75mm gun
30 truck

What I can make of the suggested kradschutzen battalion:

68 motorcycle
3 37mm AT
2 75mm gun
1 light infantry
6 82mm mortar
Presumably 10 trucks or so?
What I can make of the suggested aufkalrungs:
16 sdkfz 221
3 231
3 232
Does this seem correct?

[briantopp]

Current TO&E:
 
5 smg
18 37mm AT
12 50mm AT
6 75mm AT
30 trucks
0/10 marder II/III
 
Suggested:
 
18 light infantry
20 quad 20mm AA
8 20mm AA
24 37mm AT
9 50mm AT
 
 

[briantopp]

Current:
 
72 rifle
20 smg
8 engineer
24 20mm spaag
9 stum III41
12 halftrack 81mm
8 37mm AT
8 50mm AT
12 mmg
12 hmg
31 halftrack
140 trucks
0/8 marder II/III
 
Suggested:
 
124 heavy infantry
11 engineer
3 light infantry
7 75mm inf gun
7 150mm inf gun
15 82mm mortar
140 trucks or so?
 

[briantopp]

Current:
 
24 105mm howitzer
12 150mm howitzer
9 20mm spaag
5 smg
5 halftracks
40 trucks
 
Suggested:
 
24 105 mm howitzers
12 150mm howitzers
18 light rifles
36 trucks?
 

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: briantopp

Current:

24 105mm howitzer
12 150mm howitzer
9 20mm spaag
5 smg
5 halftracks
40 trucks

Suggested:

24 105 mm howitzers
12 150mm howitzers
18 light rifles
36 trucks?

You'll get maximum speed with 22 trucks in the first example and 27 trucks in the second. I'm not sure what the exact formula is -- there seems to be some variation -- but one truck for every two pieces that don't already move at the motorized rate will max out your movement rate. However, you do need one horse team for every one piece to be moved to max out.

I've gone over to putting in light rifles myself -- if the artillery is in a unit by itself. Else quite unrealistic things will happen if enemy units break into your artillery park.

[sPzAbt653]

I was just starting to look at the PanzerJager units. Usually I start here for a good general idea:

http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/pzjgabt.htm

So far I had only looked into the '616-mot.AT' of the 4th Panzer Group. It had the fine Czech 47mm mounted on the Pz I chassis. This looks like the PanzerJager I in the TOAW tank equipment. The unit would have an establishment of 27 of them, and going by an online TO&E, it had nothing else but some command cars and messengers. This unit had the same organization thru the timeframe of this scenario.

PzJg I production/conversion had stopped in Feb. 1941 but remained in service into 1943. A few other Abt's in addition to the 616th had them. I can look thru some more if you like.

[r6kunz]

Here is a  helpful site that has a lot of information by Nigel Askey ,“who has worked as a consultant for Talansoft Inc, on war games in their Campaign Series. The Campaign Series were tactical-operational military simulations of which the most well known are ‘East Front’ and ‘East Front II’.” His website is a preview of a book he is authoring: Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Statistical Collation and Military Simulation,


http://operationbarbarossa.net/
It includes TOE lists that are almost “TOAW ready”, and have served as the basis for RtM TOE.  Has anyone else had a look at this site?  

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: HPT KUNZ

Here is a  helpful site that has a lot of information by Nigel Askey ,“who has worked as a consultant for Talansoft Inc, on war games in their Campaign Series. The Campaign Series were tactical-operational military simulations of which the most well known are ‘East Front’ and ‘East Front II’.” His website is a preview of a book he is authoring: Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Statistical Collation and Military Simulation,


http://operationbarbarossa.net/
It includes TOE lists that are almost “TOAW ready”, and have served as the basis for RtM TOE.  Has anyone else had a look at this site?  

That's a very good panzer division to&e -- very different than what we've been discussing here to date! And as you say, almost toaw-ready. I'll try a translation tomorrow and post here.

[BigDuke66]

Really? At least the Panzer Regiment looks close to what I've posted.
45 Pz II(February 1941) or 51(November 1941)
71 Pz III
28 Pz IV
6 PzBefWg
They just differ a bit because he include the Staffel for each Abteilung, question is should they be included?

[samba_liten]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Really? At least the Panzer Reginment looks close to what I've posted.
45 Pz II(February 1941) or 51(November 1941)
71 Pz III
28 Pz IV
6 PzBefWg
They just differ a bit because he include the Staffel for each Abteilung, question is should they be included?

I figure they were with the division at the front, and so were bound to end up being used. I've found many examples even of the training battalion ending up in action quite early in the war, so why not these tanks?[:)]

On a related note, when the PzBefWg were upgraded to the Pz III chassis, did they keep their main gun? If so it might be proper to add six more Pz III's to the division.

[sPzAbt653]

Usually the command vehicles had the main guns removed to make room for radios.

[briantopp]

I guess this would qualify as a grognard point: 82mm mortars are shown in the toaw equipment editor as soviet equipment. The germansvused 81mm, seems like?

[samba_liten]

About the mortars: if that's what it says, then that's what it is. I just plucked 82mm from memory without checking it.

[briantopp]

Righto many thanks

[briantopp]

Here is askey's take on a pz division, reformatted a little and omitting a few ants:
 
Scout:
 
Motorcycle 26
Engineer 3
sdk 247 2
260/261 5
230/231 6
221A 8
222 8
263 4
253 3
LMG 19
HMG 2
50mm mort 19
81 mm mort 2
37mm AT 3
75mm gun 2
Trucks
 
Motorcycle bn:
 
Motorcycle 61
Engineer 3
260 2
LMG 55
HMG 14
50mm mort 9
81 mm mort 6
37mm AT 3
75mm gun 2
Trucks
 
panzerjager:
 
Motorcycle 8
LMG 18
37mm AT 24
50mm AT 9
Light halftrack 15
260/261 2
Trucks
 
Artillery:
 
LMG 22
Motorcycle 20
Halftrack 45
253 22
105mm how. 24
150 mm how. 12
Truck
Horse
 
panzer bn:
 
pzI (as discussed above)
pzII
pzIII
pzIV
LMG 12
motorcycle 13
engineer 4
skd 251 1
Halftracks 11
 
Schutzen regiment (includes half of pioneer bn):
 
Heavy inf 54
Engineer 18
Motorcycle 24
LMG 56
HMG 28
50mm mort 18
81mm mort 12
37mm AT 6
75mm hun 4
skd 250 26
sdk 251 77
Trucks
 

[samba_liten]

The layout of your Pz.Div really depends on how detailed you want to be. The Pz.Rgt is fairly standard, according to Dr. Leo, but the infantry Rgt.'s have varying amounts of armored infantry in there, and the AT and Recon units vary quite a lot in some cases.

The symbol for the armored car units often have a letter inside them, which is not always the same. Unfortunately, i have not been able to figure out what they mean yet. Maybe someone here knows?

What i do know, is that the unit symbols are the same for all the different armored cars, and that the armament of the vehicles is shown underneath in the same way as for an infantry unit. Thus, 7th Pz.Div has two companies of armored cars with 24 37mm guns and 26 LMG's each, while 1st Pz.Div has one company with 10 37mm's and 25 LMG's.

[samba_liten]

It gets even more complicated if you go deeper. I asked around about some of the things i couldn't figure out:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=172397

[sPzAbt653]

How come there are no Anti Aircraft guns in any of the TO&E's?

Here are a few more PzJg's.

169th, with 2nd Panzer Army, 27 PzJg I's, disbanded 6-20-42 to form PzJgAbt of 17th Pz Div. [not in the scenario]
521st, went to AGS after Typhoon, but if it stays in BfM, 27 PzJg I's with 0/18 Marder II's (or swap out in 6-42). [24th pz 2pzG]
559th, with 4th Army, 27 PzJg I's, 6-28-42 re-equipped with 12 Marder II's and 24 towed 75 PAK's (could be swapped out). [57 pz 4pzG]
561st, with 9th Army, 18 PzJg I's plus 9 37mm AT guns. [27th corps AOK9]
611th, with 4th Panzer Group, 27 PzJg I's, June 1942 added 12 Marder II's and went to AGS. [35th corps 2pzG]
616th, with 4th Army, 27 PzJg I's. [4th panzer Group]
643rd, with LVI Corps 3rd Panzer Group, 27 PzJg I's. 3-26-42 becomes part of GD. [5th corps 3pzG]

[samba_liten]

The infantry divisions don't show any organic AA assets. The Pz. divisions have a few AA half-tracks each. I guess most of the AA assets were in separate units at this point in the war.