Early withdrawal Syndrome

[TommyG]

I know this has been discussed, but, what really happened to those five P-40 and four Banshee squadrons that now have to withdraw from Oz on or before 15Mar42? It would seem that they were withdrawn just as the Darwin raid happened and the risk to Australia was the highest? It seems absurd in the game and just as absurd IRL. Were they really withdrawn, and why?

[m10bob]

Were some of them the planes they put on the Langley??

[Cap Mandrake]

I think the Pope told them to do it.

[Grunt]

IIRC, the Banshee sqdns were issued B-25's and later merged with the 3rd Bomb Group. A good read on the subject is: Operation Plum: The ill-fated 27th Bombardment Group and the Fight for the Western Pacific, by Adrian Martin and Larry Stephenson.

1209 men arrived in the PI in November '41. The group fought on Bataan as infantry. Later some pilots were evacuated to Oz. There they received the Banshees...missing several key parts. For the first few months of the war they flew from Java, Australia and New Guinea. After a year, only 20 men returned to the US.

Russ

[TommyG]

Okay, so they were in the zone for a year, had bad luck and screwed up logistics, and went home. That does not explain why we weary allied players have to lose our only fighter cover in March 42. I'm waiting to hear an exlanation from someone familiar with the design decision.

[noguaranteeofsanity]

ORIGINAL: TommyG

Okay, so they were in the zone for a year, had bad luck and screwed up logistics, and went home. That does not explain why we weary allied players have to lose our only fighter cover in March 42. I'm waiting to hear an exlanation from someone familiar with the design decision.

I dont think it was a design decision as such, simply a reflection of what actually happened historically.

The Banshees were en route to the Philippines as part of the 27th BG, but war broke out and the ships carrying the aircraft were diverted to Brisbane arriving December 22, 1941, however, the pilots and ground crew had already arrived in the Philippines. There was also the added complication, that when assembled it was realised that essential parts for the A-24s had not been shipped to Australia with the planes and the parts needed to be flown to Australia from the US, which caused further delays. Eventually some pilots were evacuated from the Philippines and arrived at Brisbane, to attempt to fly the planes North in February 1942, but they only got as far as Java, before Bataan fell. The A-24's then were sent to Port Moresby on April 1, 1942, only to suffer heavy losses. When 5 out of 7 aircraft involved in a single raid were shot down, the USAAF decided to withdraw them from combat, as they thought the aircraft was unsuitable for service. What was left of the 27th BG were sent back to the US, re-equipped with A-20s and eventually sent to North Africa, as part of the 12th USAAF.

As to the P-40s, they were intended to go the Philippines like the A-24s and were also missing parts, which delayed their assembly and in addition, many of the pilots were still cadets and needed further training before entering combat. The fact that of the 330 P-40s that had arrived in Australia by March 1942, 140 were lost in accidents, is testament to their inexperience.

Eventually some pilots and aircraft were formed into the 5 Provisional pursuit squadrons and sent north via the "Brereton route" to Java, via Darwin. Some managed to reach Java, but after the Japanese invaded Koepang in Timor and bombed Darwin, this route was also cut and ABDA came to the conclusion that Java could not be saved. This led to a disagreement between USAFIA (US Air Forces in Australia) and ABDA in February 1942, which resulted in General Wavell and Air Marshal Richard Peirse commandeering all fighter aircraft flying north along the Brereton Route and ordering them to be transferred to Perth, in order to be loaded aboard the USS Langley and Seawitch, which were to transport them to Burma. Then when ABDA was dissolved, General Brett diverted the ships to Java with the 59 aircraft on board, as the Americans felt the position was not hopeless yet and that additional air power could help turn the tide of the battle. However, on the 27th February, the convoy was attacked and the Langley sunk with the lost of all pilots and planes, then when the Seawitch reached Tjilatjap on the 28th, the Japanese had already begun landing on Java and the aircraft were destroyed, without even being unpacked from their crates. Of the aircraft that had already reached Java, they flew their last mission on the 28th and by the 1st of March, 1942, all P40s in Java had been destroyed in combat or on the ground.

Basically, to answer your question, the units were disbanded with the fall of the Philippines and Java, as they were provisional squadrons, put together in a hurry, with the sole purpose of reinforcing USAFE/ABDA and were not intended for the air defence of Australia. It was not until after the raid on Darwin, that the remaining fighter units in Australia, were made operational and received their aircraft, which had previously been used to form the Provisional squadrons that were sent north . However, the catch is, the Allied player still has to transport those air groups to Australia from the US at the start of the war. Essentially, as the Allied player, you are not losing your fighter cover with units that arrive and quickly depart, you simply sent it somewhere else or left it sitting in the US.

[Reg]

You gotta feel for the game designers who have to incorporate the potential for that sort historical fiasco into the game and still keep some sort play balance..... [X(]

[m10bob]

IRL, the Aussies then had to wait so long to get those P 40 Fighters they began sarcastically referring to them as "Tomorrowhawks"....

[TommyG]

Thanks everybody for the responses. I kind of thought it was something like that. My concern is that some of the ac were lost at sea while others were wiped out at PM, both occuring after December 7; i.e, they were battle losses. The game does not make the IJ withdraw 4 carriers on June 6 1942, or the Lexington in May. Put the fighters in the US and let me take the risk of getting them to Oz, or leave them in Brisbane with 100 reairs required and pilots with exp in the teens. Making me withdraw a functioning squadron from a critical position just gives lip service to historical accuracy. Battle losses after Dec 7 should not be pre programmed.

[The Gnome]

First off, I agree, this is a tough call for the designers.

Did these squadrons ever fly? Just to play Devil's advocate should they even be included? Sounds like if they had no pilots, no ground crew, and no parts there was no real unit, and maybe the airframes should just be in the replacement pool.

[bradfordkay]

But these squadrons did fly and fight. They just didn't last long. The pilots that survived (they were among the high priority troops to be transported out of Java during the collapse) were incorporated into other squadrons, IIRC.

[noguaranteeofsanity]

ORIGINAL: TommyG

Thanks everybody for the responses. I kind of thought it was something like that. My concern is that some of the ac were lost at sea while others were wiped out at PM, both occuring after December 7; i.e, they were battle losses. The game does not make the IJ withdraw 4 carriers on June 6 1942, or the Lexington in May. Put the fighters in the US and let me take the risk of getting them to Oz, or leave them in Brisbane with 100 reairs required and pilots with exp in the teens. Making me withdraw a functioning squadron from a critical position just gives lip service to historical accuracy. Battle losses after Dec 7 should not be pre programmed.

The withdrawal of the provisional squadrons, doesn't represent the combat losses, it represents the fact, that with Java and the Philippines under Japanese control, it was no longer necessary to form the provisional squadrons to fly north to reinforce USAFE or ABDA.

It would seem the formation of the provisional or 'temporary' units was the result of the confusion at the start of the war, inexperienced pilots, the desperate need to reinforce the Philippines and Java with whatever aircraft were available and also the fact that all aircraft were sent to and assembled in Brisbane, despite many of the units being based elsewhere in southern Australia. The provisional squadrons pilots, were sent from their 'regular' squadrons and groups to Brisbane to pick up their aircraft , fly them to Darwin and then on to Java.

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

But these squadrons did fly and fight. They just didn't last long. The pilots that survived (they were among the high priority troops to be transported out of Java during the collapse) were incorporated into other squadrons, IIRC.

Agree, the provisional squadrons did fly and fight, even if temporarily, formed from the 'regular' groups that arrived in Australia during early 1942, especially the 49th FG. Of the provisional units that were sent to Java, the pilots and crews were evacuated back to Australia when the Japanese invaded and also believe they rejoined their units or were adsorbed into others.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: TommyG

Thanks everybody for the responses. I kind of thought it was something like that. My concern is that some of the ac were lost at sea while others were wiped out at PM, both occuring after December 7; i.e, they were battle losses. The game does not make the IJ withdraw 4 carriers on June 6 1942, or the Lexington in May. Put the fighters in the US and let me take the risk of getting them to Oz, or leave them in Brisbane with 100 reairs required and pilots with exp in the teens. Making me withdraw a functioning squadron from a critical position just gives lip service to historical accuracy. Battle losses after Dec 7 should not be pre programmed.

Valid point. (We have all American ships intact at Pearl on turn one.)

[Grollub]

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity

ORIGINAL: TommyG

Okay, so they were in the zone for a year, had bad luck and screwed up logistics, and went home. That does not explain why we weary allied players have to lose our only fighter cover in March 42. I'm waiting to hear an exlanation from someone familiar with the design decision.

I dont think it was a design decision as such, simply a reflection of what actually happened historically.

The Banshees were en route to the Philippines as part of the 27th BG, but war broke out and the ships carrying the aircraft were diverted to Brisbane arriving December 22, 1941, however, the pilots and ground crew had already arrived in the Philippines. There was also the added complication, that when assembled it was realised that essential parts for the A-24s had not been shipped to Australia with the planes and the parts needed to be flown to Australia from the US, which caused further delays. Eventually some pilots were evacuated from the Philippines and arrived at Brisbane, to attempt to fly the planes North in February 1942, but they only got as far as Java, before Bataan fell. The A-24's then were sent to Port Moresby on April 1, 1942, only to suffer heavy losses. When 5 out of 7 aircraft involved in a single raid were shot down, the USAAF decided to withdraw them from combat, as they thought the aircraft was unsuitable for service. What was left of the 27th BG were sent back to the US, re-equipped with A-20s and eventually sent to North Africa, as part of the 12th USAAF.

As to the P-40s, they were intended to go the Philippines like the A-24s and were also missing parts, which delayed their assembly and in addition, many of the pilots were still cadets and needed further training before entering combat. The fact that of the 330 P-40s that had arrived in Australia by March 1942, 140 were lost in accidents, is testament to their inexperience.

Eventually some pilots and aircraft were formed into the 5 Provisional pursuit squadrons and sent north via the "Brereton route" to Java, via Darwin. Some managed to reach Java, but after the Japanese invaded Koepang in Timor and bombed Darwin, this route was also cut and ABDA came to the conclusion that Java could not be saved. This led to a disagreement between USAFIA (US Air Forces in Australia) and ABDA in February 1942, which resulted in General Wavell and Air Marshal Richard Peirse commandeering all fighter aircraft flying north along the Brereton Route and ordering them to be transferred to Perth, in order to be loaded aboard the USS Langley and Seawitch, which were to transport them to Burma. Then when ABDA was dissolved, General Brett diverted the ships to Java with the 59 aircraft on board, as the Americans felt the position was not hopeless yet and that additional air power could help turn the tide of the battle. However, on the 27th February, the convoy was attacked and the Langley sunk with the lost of all pilots and planes, then when the Seawitch reached Tjilatjap on the 28th, the Japanese had already begun landing on Java and the aircraft were destroyed, without even being unpacked from their crates. Of the aircraft that had already reached Java, they flew their last mission on the 28th and by the 1st of March, 1942, all P40s in Java had been destroyed in combat or on the ground.

Basically, to answer your question, the units were disbanded with the fall of the Philippines and Java, as they were provisional squadrons, put together in a hurry, with the sole purpose of reinforcing USAFE/ABDA and were not intended for the air defence of Australia. It was not until after the raid on Darwin, that the remaining fighter units in Australia, were made operational and received their aircraft, which had previously been used to form the Provisional squadrons that were sent north . However, the catch is, the Allied player still has to transport those air groups to Australia from the US at the start of the war. Essentially, as the Allied player, you are not losing your fighter cover with units that arrive and quickly depart, you simply sent it somewhere else or left it sitting in the US.

Very good post. Thanks. [:)]

[ckammp]

ORIGINAL: TommyG

Thanks everybody for the responses. I kind of thought it was something like that. My concern is that some of the ac were lost at sea while others were wiped out at PM, both occuring after December 7; i.e, they were battle losses. The game does not make the IJ withdraw 4 carriers on June 6 1942, or the Lexington in May. Put the fighters in the US and let me take the risk of getting them to Oz, or leave them in Brisbane with 100 reairs required and pilots with exp in the teens. Making me withdraw a functioning squadron from a critical position just gives lip service to historical accuracy. Battle losses after Dec 7 should not be pre programmed.

Why don't you play with the option "No Unit Withdrawals"?

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: ckammp

ORIGINAL: TommyG

Thanks everybody for the responses. I kind of thought it was something like that. My concern is that some of the ac were lost at sea while others were wiped out at PM, both occuring after December 7; i.e, they were battle losses. The game does not make the IJ withdraw 4 carriers on June 6 1942, or the Lexington in May. Put the fighters in the US and let me take the risk of getting them to Oz, or leave them in Brisbane with 100 reairs required and pilots with exp in the teens. Making me withdraw a functioning squadron from a critical position just gives lip service to historical accuracy. Battle losses after Dec 7 should not be pre programmed.

Why don't you play with the option "No Unit Withdrawals"?

Probably the same reason as me because I does not use this option in my 1st game. I wanted to play as historical as possible. And if these planes weren´t there in reality they should not be in the game. However I noted that these withdrawals add even more micromanagement to the game (consider also the ships need to be send back etc.) that I played my 2nd game actually with no withdrawals. Also there some more unhistoric things in the game, so makes not much difference. I still withdraw most planes however, guess the Brits get a bit of advantage now cause they do not need to withdraw some CLs and BBs (most old ones, but still could fight)..........

I wish that some units just were not in game at all, some are there for 2-3 weeks and then need to be withdrawn [8|]

[TommyG]

Noguaranty's response was persuasive. That, coupled with the fact that the planes and crews go back to the pools rather than into the ether convinced me that the game does handle the situation appropriately. The planes and pilots are still available in Oz if you have a squadron to put them in, so "nevermind".