Militia --> Regulars

[Bradley7735]

(never understood how a militia squad could become regulars, anyway)

JWE

Ok, I'm not a serious grognard, but I love the discussions that you serious grognards produce. I started thinking about John's comment in his DEI thread. How can a militia upgrade to a regular? I'm guessing that militia troops have very little training/equipment compared to regular troops. So, they need training. You can't just do that in a day. It takes a few months, right?

I thought that if you labeled the militia devices as non-troop devices, you might fix John's question. As the game treats them now, the militia device upgrades to the troop device without reducing the troop device pool. If you treat this upgrade as if the militia left the unit to go to boot camp, and the troop devices joined the unit, fresh from boot camp, it makes more sense.

Basically, if you upgrade a militia unit, your troop device pool will drop accordingly. When you upgrade from troop to troop, you're basically just upgrading the equipment and not the men, so your pool doesn't decrease.

Anyway, I'm only bringing up this thought because I like the discussions. It makes little difference to me if you guys want to change the devices.

bc

[PaxMondo]

The other way to look at the conversion (in game terms) would be based upon experience.&nbsp; I think of militia as exp<=20 type troops.&nbsp; Once they get to exp=40 or so, they are regulars (granted fresh boots).&nbsp; That training takes quite a bit of time (both in game and IRL).
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But I like your idea of the device as well.&nbsp;&nbsp; Graduate them from Boot Camp on up to a regular unit.&nbsp; Each "upgrade" costs supply (training is expensive) and takes time.
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So start them real small on exp and use several device upgrades.&nbsp; Be really cool if the upgrades could happen based upon exp, not just upon the game clock.&nbsp; (Future feature)

[vinnie71]

Well if one looks at the Australian, NZ and Canadian forces in the begining, one gets the impression that the forces present were only those that were in training. I think that the Australian divisions were activated later on, so there is a change in role, as were the NZ forces. I'm not sure about the Canadians.
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Indian militia I take to represent the 'tribal' forces that the British kept to fight in the NW frontier. &nbsp;
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So my take is the witpae actually mimicks what was really going on. If you look at most militia units on the allied side, one sees that their to&e grows better over time and they even get additional devices like mgs and mortars. Militias gradually seem to have been absorbed into the frontline units or started being used in the front line. Thus they were given more weapons, training etc to carry out their mission in a better way.

[Andy Mac]

Indian Militia are actually ISF Indian States Forces or Nepalese Army Bns - they were funded by the local Raja and could be better equipped than the regulers.
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Typically they were used in COIN and LOC duties but when the Indian Army finally had enough small arms and especially when the manpower crisis hit and they wanted to expand to 10 Bns per Div they were brought up to snuff and many served with Divs in the front line.
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Australian CMF Militia are basically CMF stay at home soldiers not home guard types as are the Canadians these are soldier who have no volounterred for overseas duties - when given appropriate small arms they are the same firepower as normal trained soldiers albeit not as high xp or morale
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NZ is a wied one that I may have made a mistake over - NZ militia were constantly milked of the best troops to provide drafts for the fighting Divs - they may have been more akin to Home Guard and Cadet forces - I am waiting on some data to prove or disprove.
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[JeffroK]

I think the Australian & Canadian Militia units are most closely aligned with US National Guard units.

I assumed NZ Territorial Army was similar, maybe this changed over the war years.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Indian Militia are actually ISF Indian States Forces or Nepalese Army Bns - they were funded by the local Raja and could be better equipped than the regulers.

Typically they were used in COIN and LOC duties but when the Indian Army finally had enough small arms and especially when the manpower crisis hit and they wanted to expand to 10 Bns per Div they were brought up to snuff and many served with Divs in the front line.

Australian CMF Militia are basically CMF stay at home soldiers not home guard types as are the Canadians these are soldier who have no volounterred for overseas duties - when given appropriate small arms they are the same firepower as normal trained soldiers albeit not as high xp or morale

NZ is a wied one that I may have made a mistake over - NZ militia were constantly milked of the best troops to provide drafts for the fighting Divs - they may have been more akin to Home Guard and Cadet forces - I am waiting on some data to prove or disprove.

Australian CMF were regular soldiers, not militia. Originally only the AIF (volunteers) served outside of Australia, but this changed later and the difference between AIF and CMF vanished. The Aussis had several garrison battalions that could qualify as 'militia' (WW1 veterans etc.), but the CMF basically was their regular army.

The Canadian soldiers serving as part of 13th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 19th and 20th Canadian Brigades at the Canadian Pacific Coast were regular soldiers, not militia. A Canadian militia existed but was not activated. Many soldiers serving in the aforementioned brigades were send as reinforcements to the ETO.

There were three kinds of NZ soldiers, volunteers of the 2nd and 3rd NZ Expeditionary Forces (divisions), militia and NMR (National Military Reserve) included in the militia in early 1942.

[JWE]

(never understood how a militia squad could become regulars, anyway)

LOL .. Poorly expressed comment on my part. I had my head in the DEI and was not thinking about the various ‘organized’ militias, or what some countries call ‘militias’ but are rather like the US National Guard. Was thinking in scenario terms, mostly about the various Dutch militias; Kort Verband, Landwacht, Statwacht, and Landstorm. The Militie had the younger conscripts and the Reservekorps was retired military, so they might be considered ‘organized’ militia and should work up pretty well eventually.

The rest, I just don’t know; civilians not liable for service, bankers, clerks, farmers, shoe salesmen, 35-55 year olds. I tend to think of them much like our militia in the War of Independence. They might do ok here and there, but weren’t dependable: no real officers, no real training, heterogeneous weaponry, and everybody just wanted to go home. These are the folks I think of as ‘militia’. [:)]

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Indian Militia are actually ISF Indian States Forces or Nepalese Army Bns - they were funded by the local Raja and could be better equipped than the regulers.

Typically they were used in COIN and LOC duties but when the Indian Army finally had enough small arms and especially when the manpower crisis hit and they wanted to expand to 10 Bns per Div they were brought up to snuff and many served with Divs in the front line.

Australian CMF Militia are basically CMF stay at home soldiers not home guard types as are the Canadians these are soldier who have no volounterred for overseas duties - when given appropriate small arms they are the same firepower as normal trained soldiers albeit not as high xp or morale

NZ is a wied one that I may have made a mistake over - NZ militia were constantly milked of the best troops to provide drafts for the fighting Divs - they may have been more akin to Home Guard and Cadet forces - I am waiting on some data to prove or disprove.

Australian CMF were regular soldiers, not militia. Originally only the AIF (volunteers) served outside of Australia, but this changed later and the difference between AIF and CMF vanished. The Aussis had several garrison battalions that could qualify as 'militia' (WW1 veterans etc.), but the CMF basically was their regular army.

That's not quite correct. The Australian CMF forces really were part-timers or reservists or militia etc, However there was no standing Australian army until 1949. So what you have are units (lets say 1st Div) which is made up of CMF militia sub - units. The officers and a cadre of NCO's and soldiers were known as PMF (Permanent Military Forces) and the bulk of the unit was CMF (Part - time militia men who servered periods of full time service). Most of the time these units were skeltons that consisted only of their PMF cadre.

To make things more complicated many CMF units had been activated between Sept 1939 and Dec 1941, so by game start several of the militia units had a year or more of full time service.

To make things more complicated still, when the AIF was raised in 1939 most of the junior field officers were drawn from the milita rather than the tiny PMF which was needed to train the rapidly growning froces and to form staff HQ's.

The AIF, at formation, were even more "amateur" in theory than the CMF as they were citizen soldiers, not even part timers....although many were (had been) part timers and a few had been regulars, some part timers were actually permanent full-timers and the AIF were full-time, but not regulars.
Confused??

Now spare a thought for the night mare Andy Mac must have had trying to model all this. (And along those lines also consider that as there was no standing army, there was no standard organisation and each unit customized its TO&E pretty much as they saw fit.)

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Dobey

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Indian Militia are actually ISF Indian States Forces or Nepalese Army Bns - they were funded by the local Raja and could be better equipped than the regulers.

Typically they were used in COIN and LOC duties but when the Indian Army finally had enough small arms and especially when the manpower crisis hit and they wanted to expand to 10 Bns per Div they were brought up to snuff and many served with Divs in the front line.

Australian CMF Militia are basically CMF stay at home soldiers not home guard types as are the Canadians these are soldier who have no volounterred for overseas duties - when given appropriate small arms they are the same firepower as normal trained soldiers albeit not as high xp or morale

NZ is a wied one that I may have made a mistake over - NZ militia were constantly milked of the best troops to provide drafts for the fighting Divs - they may have been more akin to Home Guard and Cadet forces - I am waiting on some data to prove or disprove.

Australian CMF were regular soldiers, not militia. Originally only the AIF (volunteers) served outside of Australia, but this changed later and the difference between AIF and CMF vanished. The Aussis had several garrison battalions that could qualify as 'militia' (WW1 veterans etc.), but the CMF basically was their regular army.

That's not quite correct. The Australian CMF forces really were part-timers or reservists or militia etc, However there was no standing Australian army until 1949. So what you have are units (lets say 1st Div) which is made up of CMF militia sub - units. The officers and a cadre of NCO's and soldiers were known as PMF (Permanent Military Forces) and the bulk of the unit was CMF (Part - time militia men who servered periods of full time service). Most of the time these units were skeltons that consisted only of their PMF cadre.

To make things more complicated many CMF units had been activated between Sept 1939 and Dec 1941, so by game start several of the militia units had a year or more of full time service.

To make things more complicated still, when the AIF was raised in 1939 most of the junior field officers were drawn from the milita rather than the tiny PMF which was needed to train the rapidly growning froces and to form staff HQ's.

The AIF, at formation, were even more "amateur" in theory than the CMF as they were citizen soldiers, not even part timers....although many were (had been) part timers and a few had been regulars, some part timers were actually permanent full-timers and the AIF were full-time, but not regulars.
Confused??

Now spare a thought for the night mare Andy Mac must have had trying to model all this. (And along those lines also consider that as there was no standing army, there was no standard organisation and each unit customized its TO&E pretty much as they saw fit.)

Hi, I already knew this. I just think that the term 'militia' does not adequately describe the CMF. Probably the term 'regular' is misleading as well, but for example the bigger part of the German Army of 1939-45 were not activy duty soldiers but reservists etc. and nobody would call them 'militia' (same with French and Japanese Armies etc.).

And I'm certainly aware of the problems faced by Andy[;)]