"Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

a tricky problem.

I set up these events and ran them in a test scenario. To speed things up I originally used turn 4 instead of turn 54. The red circled event 24 needs to be changed to whatever event the TO for the 8th triggers. In the test, if the TO was chosen before turn 4, the Mark II's didn't arrive until turn 4. When the TO was chosen on turn 6, the Mark II's arrived on turn 7. So it seems that if it were set up as shown for turn 54, with the Mark II's set to arrive by event 49, then it should work to get the desired effect.

Very interesting! Ok I'll give it a try.

[BigDuke66]

Some more corrections:
-39th Korps
I'll try to track in down but it seems to have moved sometimes south to Cholm(area of 16. Armee/HG Nord but on map) but was never under command of the 2. PG.

Same counts for the divisions in it:
-81. came to 10K/16A on 9. January 1942
-205. came to 59K/3PG in March 1942
-328. came to 9. Armee in April 1942 and was dispersed
-83. from 17th December on it was OKH Reserve in Malkina, command moved than to "Befh. d. rückw. Heeresgebietes Mitte"(Rear area commander of HG Mitte) and finally to 59K/3PG on 20th January 1942
-246. cam to 9. Armee in February 1942

Not sure what to make out of the 4 regiments there as I couldn't find any details about them.

[BigDuke66]

Some ideas I had today:

-Panzer reinforcement units(similar to the 1942 units) for October, November and December 1941 as the tank replacement that got to the front was very low and not nearly the production level.

-Production of the Pz IVF2 should start much sooner, we have 87 in the game what maybe covers production of March & April 42 but in May the production should start.

-A collection thread collecting player experience would be good to see what approaches the players took and what maybe needs a bit more tweaking, in a form of a mini AAR maybe, I think this could be useful in such a long scenario.

-Regarding the overall reinforcements I think the further we get away from the starting point and especially starting with March/April 1942(were historically the decision was made where the next offensive should take place) the placement of the new units should take the Korps supporting assets into account, there is not much sense filling a Korps up with IDs and it doesn't even have one artillery unit to support the divisions, so the more supporting assets the Korps has the more IDs or other division it should get. Also the Armeen should get some divisions for deployments, only 9. & 2. Armee have each 1 ID to deploy at the start so giving each Armee 2 divisions at least should do the job.

-The 1942 replacement units should be spread out over the year, volume 6 of "Germany and the Second World War" gives a nice overview that shows that staring with February the replacements of Personnel for the army in the east was over 100k and stayed there till July 42(124,1k, 137,7k, 121,4k, 158,9k, 156,7k & 177,8k composed of replacement and recovered soldiers), I think that shows very good the acceleration to fill up the losses and later to prepare fotr the next offensive so a similar spread in the scenario makes much more sense than throwing everything into the pool on a single turn.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Some ideas I had today:

-Panzer reinforcement units(similar to the 1942 units) for October, November and December 1941 as the tank replacement that got to the front was very low and not nearly the production level.

-Production of the Pz IVF2 should start much sooner, we have 87 in the game what maybe covers production of March & April 42 but in May the production should start.

-A collection thread collecting player experience would be good to see what approaches the players took and what maybe needs a bit more tweaking, in a form of a mini AAR maybe, I think this could be useful in such a long scenario.

-Regarding the overall reinforcements I think the further we get away from the starting point and especially starting with March/April 1942(were historically the decision was made where the next offensive should take place) the placement of the new units should take the Korps supporting assets into account, there is not much sense filling a Korps up with IDs and it doesn't even have one artillery unit to support the divisions, so the more supporting assets the Korps has the more IDs or other division it should get. Also the Armeen should get some divisions for deployments, only 9. & 2. Armee have each 1 ID to deploy at the start so giving each Armee 2 divisions at least should do the job.

-The 1942 replacement units should be spread out over the year, volume 6 of "Germany and the Second World War" gives a nice overview that shows that staring with February the replacements of Personnel for the army in the east was over 100k and stayed there till July 42(124,1k, 137,7k, 121,4k, 158,9k, 156,7k & 177,8k composed of replacement and recovered soldiers), I think that shows very good the acceleration to fill up the losses and later to prepare fotr the next offensive so a similar spread in the scenario makes much more sense than throwing everything into the pool on a single turn.

- you'd do 1941 reinforcement units in lieu of 1% replacements in the replacement editor, just to be clear?
- may 1942 pzIVf2: so when does the pzivf1 start and stop?
- aar thread - good idea I was thinking of posting the "final" build (or at least, the reasonably-serviceable-willing-to-claim-its-a-finished-draft build) in a new thread and invite running comments.
- i basically feathered the newly-arriving divisions either (a) into "AGC reserve" if they are optional, or into armies that I thought would most likely be in most most desperate need of reinforcement (pzg2, notably). Could adopt a different policy just as easily
- i like the idea of spreading out the 1942 surge replacements so that the 1942 retooling is less abrupt, actually -- that's good. Would you do the same with the equipment?

[briantopp]

So if I understood the recipe correctly, this is how you'd set this up? Part 1:

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: briantopp

So if I understood the recipe correctly, this is how you'd set this up? Part 1:

Part 2:

[sPzAbt653]

So if I understood the recipe correctly, this is how you'd set this up?

I think that is it.

when does the pzivf1 start and stop?

IVf1 487 prod, 4-41 to 3-42.
IVf2 prod 200, 3-42 to 5-42.
But ... TOAW doesn't have a IVg, instead it uses the IVf2 as the IVg, so when we see IVf2 in TOAW, treat it as the IVg. So we can forget the above numbers and go with this:

IVf1 487 prod, 4-41 to 3-42.
IVf2, IVg e, and IVg l - prod 1,887, 3-42 to 3-43 (afterwhich the IVh's started).

i basically feathered the newly-arriving divisions either (a) into "AGC reserve" if they are optional, or into armies that I thought would most likely be in most most desperate need of reinforcement

I've been looking at some of the units histories also, as long as things were possible we should be able to go along with the designers interpretation. No need to determine just exactly where some units were attached when this scenario situation is different from the historical.

... spreading out the 1942 surge replacements so that the 1942 retooling is less abrupt ...

I might recommend monitoring how it currently works, because I don't understand the replacement system at all, but have seen some cases were it takes a long time to get replacements into units. I might worry that spreading them out thru 1942 could prevent the mid-42 build up, or hinder it. I'm currently at turn 62 (5-42) so I expect something to happen, but nothing yet.

[briantopp]

Replacement surge should have happened on turn 50, along with all the pz battalions.

[samba_liten]

Was looking at the number of air craft in the Luftwaffe. It seems to me that they have too many. Did some research. Here is what i came up with. Might try the same for the Soviets later.

First twin engined units:

Code: Select all

Present on east front		# of a/c 3-42	Type	Notes		
 Stab./ZG 1 from 1-42 until 3-43			Bf110	no a/c info until 5-42 when it got 5		
 I./ZG 1 from 5-42			Bf110	no a/c info until 5-42 when it got 37		
 II./ZG 1 from 5-42			Bf110	no a/c info until 5-42 when it got 36		
 I./ZG 26		44	Bf110			
 II./ZG 26 until 3-42		20	Bf110			
 						
 						
 	Production					
 1941	594					
 1942	501					
 1943	641					
 						
 

[samba_liten]

Next bombers and ground attack, part one:

Code: Select all

Present on east front		# of a/c 3-42	Type	Notes		
 Stab./KG1 until 11-42		2	He111	upgrades to ju 88 9-42		
 I./KG 1 Until 4-43		6	JU88A	# is for 7-42		
 II./KG 1 until 1-43		23	JU88A			
 III./KG 1 until 11-42		21	JU88A			
 Stab./KG 2 until 11-41		1	DO217			
 I./KG 2 until 11-41		20	DO217			
 
 

[samba_liten]

Part two:

Code: Select all

Stab./KG 3 until 3-43		1	JU88A			
 I./KG 3		39	JU88A			
 II./KG 3		19	JU88A			
 III./KG 3		20	JU88A			
 Stab./KG 4		1	He111			
 I./KG 4		30	He111			
 II./KG 4		31	He111			
 III./KG 4 until 10-42		21	He111			
 III./KG 26 until 2-42		8	He111			
 Stab and I-III./KG27		68	He111			
 IV./KG27 until 3-43		21	He111	# is for 1-43		
 Stab and I./KG 28 until 12-41		no info	no info			
 Stab./KG51 until 9-43		2	JU88A			
 I./KG51 until 5-43		8	JU88A			
 II.KG 51 until 5-43		36	JU88A			
 III.KG 51		26	JU88A			
 Stab and I-III./KG 53		73	He111			
 Stab and I./KG 54 until 12-41		30	JU88A			
 KG55 (no IV.Gruppe)		28	He111			
 KG76 (no IV.Gruppe) until 11-42		32	JU88A			
 KG77 (no IV.Gruppe) until 12-41		93	JU88A			
 I./KG 100 from 8-42until 10-43		19	He111			
 KG102 (with 2 gruppen only) from 6-43		no info	no info			
 

[samba_liten]

Part three:

Code: Select all

Stab./StG 1 until 10-43		3	JU87			
 I./StG 1 from 6-43 until 10-43		32	JU87	# is for 6-43		
 II.StG 1 until 10-43		42	JU87			
 III./StG 1 until 10-43		47	JU87			
 StG 2 until 10-43		54	JU87			
 III./StG 3 from 6-43 until 10-43		35	JU87	# is for 6-43		
 StG 77 until 10-43		88	JU87			
 Sch.G 1 from 1-42		21Bf109e 21 HS123 16 HS129		Upgrades to FW190 4-43		
 						
 	Production					
 Year	JU88A	HE111	JU87	HS123	HS129	DO217
 1941	2146	950	500	None during war	7	20
 1942	2270	1337	960		221	277
 1943	2160	1405	1672		411	564

[samba_liten]

Fighters:

Code: Select all

	Present on east front		# of aircraft 27-09-41		Type	Notes	
 	JG3 		55		Bf109f		
 	I.JG26 1-6 '43		34		FW190A	#of a/c for 1-43	
 	JG27 untill 12 '43		103		bf109e/f		
 	JG51		83		Bf109f		
 	JG52		93		Bf109f		
 	I.JG53 until 9-42 		37		Bf109f		
 	JG54		113		Bf109f		
 	II.JG77		32		bf109e		
 							
 	A full JG has 124 authorized a/c.						
 	One Gruppe (e.g II.JG 77 has 40 authorized a/c.						
 							
 	Production						
 Year	Bf109	FW190					
 1941	2764	1850					
 1942	2657	2171					
 1943	6013	7488					
 

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: briantopp

Replacement surge should have happened on turn 50, along with all the pz battalions.

The Pz Batt's all worked, except for the already resolved 8th, and the early II/39-panzer, 17-panzer, didn't leave.

What might I have been able to notice as far as the replacement surge on turn 50?

With regards to the number of aircraft, I might say that it's more important to have casualties and air superiority correct. I say this because the Axis/Soviet loss ratio was pretty amazing, numbers that were disproportionate to any other conflict. Put another way, how many Soviet Aircraft would it take to equal one German Aircraft? If desired, I could take the time to provide turn by turn numbers from my current playtest, or I could send save files from specific turns to anyone that wanted to investigate.

[BigDuke66]

ORIGINAL: briantopp
- you'd do 1941 reinforcement units in lieu of 1% replacements in the replacement editor, just to be clear?
- may 1942 pzIVf2: so when does the pzivf1 start and stop?
- aar thread - good idea I was thinking of posting the "final" build (or at least, the reasonably-serviceable-willing-to-claim-its-a-finished-draft build) in a new thread and invite running comments.
- i basically feathered the newly-arriving divisions either (a) into "AGC reserve" if they are optional, or into armies that I thought would most likely be in most most desperate need of reinforcement (pzg2, notably). Could adopt a different policy just as easily
- i like the idea of spreading out the 1942 surge replacements so that the 1942 retooling is less abrupt, actually -- that's good. Would you do the same with the equipment?

-Not sure what you mean with the 1% replacements but I mean moving the turn were tank productions start from 1 to XX(not sure when it should be maybe January 1942) were the production was mostly allocated to the east front, before it Hitler held the majority back to form new units(as said I'm not sure when this stance ended).
Except a big load in October 1941(323) and one smaller in January 1942(159) the usual tank replacements in each month were damned low.


-sPzAbt653 numbers are right
IVf1 4-41 to 3-42
IVf2 3-42 to 5-42
also regarding the TOAW F2 covering also the G version

-Looking forward to the AAR thread I bet that gets very interesting.

-You could be right about the 2PG but on the other hand the German players knows there is a Russian offensive coming so I guess he won't let his flank so damned wide open like it happened back than, The 2. Armee could be used to old the front when 2PG is turning onto Moscow.

-Yes I would do the same with equipment, I guess similar to the attempt to recover the losses in soldiers the same was done with equipment but it took time to do so.


So and another minor stuff:
Should "2-T-panzer bn,SS-T 10th corps" & "2DR-panzer bn,SS-DasReich 2pzG" use Pz IVD? Those 2 are the only ones using it, maybe they should use the Pz IVE like the other tank units.

[samba_liten]

With regards to the number of aircraft, I might say that it's more important to have casualties and air superiority correct. I say this because the Axis/Soviet loss ratio was pretty amazing, numbers that were disproportionate to any other conflict. Put another way, how many Soviet Aircraft would it take to equal one German Aircraft? If desired, I could take the time to provide turn by turn numbers from my current playtest, or I could send save files from specific turns to anyone that wanted to investigate.

I intend to answer this in more detail, but i need more figures in order to do so. In short, without Soviet figures there is no point to messing with the German ones and pretending to be closer to history.

I will open a new thread to address the larger concern here.

[sPzAbt653]

... without Soviet figures there is no point to messing with the German ones and pretending to be closer to history.

In my first playtest with the early build, I mentioned to Brian that the air casualties seemed too high for the Germans, and provided a few stats from that playtest. I think he agreed and therefore adjusted the Soviet Air Units Proficiency, and so far it seems to have made a good difference. When I'm done with this round I can post the overall losses and that way we can see if things are out of whack. Differences in player use of Air Units would have some effect, but I don't think we can really get involved in figuring that into the equation.

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

With regards to the number of aircraft, I might say that it's more important to have casualties and air superiority correct. I say this because the Axis/Soviet loss ratio was pretty amazing, numbers that were disproportionate to any other conflict. Put another way, how many Soviet Aircraft would it take to equal one German Aircraft? If desired, I could take the time to provide turn by turn numbers from my current playtest, or I could send save files from specific turns to anyone that wanted to investigate.

I intend to answer this in more detail, but i need more figures in order to do so. In short, without Soviet figures there is no point to messing with the German ones and pretending to be closer to history.

I will open a new thread to address the larger concern here.

Shot 1 of 4

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

ORIGINAL: briantopp
- you'd do 1941 reinforcement units in lieu of 1% replacements in the replacement editor, just to be clear?
- may 1942 pzIVf2: so when does the pzivf1 start and stop?
- aar thread - good idea I was thinking of posting the "final" build (or at least, the reasonably-serviceable-willing-to-claim-its-a-finished-draft build) in a new thread and invite running comments.
- i basically feathered the newly-arriving divisions either (a) into "AGC reserve" if they are optional, or into armies that I thought would most likely be in most most desperate need of reinforcement (pzg2, notably). Could adopt a different policy just as easily
- i like the idea of spreading out the 1942 surge replacements so that the 1942 retooling is less abrupt, actually -- that's good. Would you do the same with the equipment?

-Not sure what you mean with the 1% replacements but I mean moving the turn were tank productions start from 1 to XX(not sure when it should be maybe January 1942) were the production was mostly allocated to the east front, before it Hitler held the majority back to form new units(as said I'm not sure when this stance ended).
Except a big load in October 1941(323) and one smaller in January 1942(159) the usual tank replacements in each month were damned low.


-sPzAbt653 numbers are right
IVf1 4-41 to 3-42
IVf2 3-42 to 5-42
also regarding the TOAW F2 covering also the G version

-Looking forward to the AAR thread I bet that gets very interesting.

-You could be right about the 2PG but on the other hand the German players knows there is a Russian offensive coming so I guess he won't let his flank so damned wide open like it happened back than, The 2. Armee could be used to old the front when 2PG is turning onto Moscow.

-Yes I would do the same with equipment, I guess similar to the attempt to recover the losses in soldiers the same was done with equipment but it took time to do so.


So and another minor stuff:
Should "2-T-panzer bn,SS-T 10th corps" & "2DR-panzer bn,SS-DasReich 2pzG" use Pz IVD? Those 2 are the only ones using it, maybe they should use the Pz IVE like the other tank units.

Righto on ss-t & dr.

I can pretty easily gear the tank production along these lines. Do you have similar tank production numbers further into the calendar?

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

With regards to the number of aircraft, I might say that it's more important to have casualties and air superiority correct. I say this because the Axis/Soviet loss ratio was pretty amazing, numbers that were disproportionate to any other conflict. Put another way, how many Soviet Aircraft would it take to equal one German Aircraft? If desired, I could take the time to provide turn by turn numbers from my current playtest, or I could send save files from specific turns to anyone that wanted to investigate.

I intend to answer this in more detail, but i need more figures in order to do so. In short, without Soviet figures there is no point to messing with the German ones and pretending to be closer to history.

I will open a new thread to address the larger concern here.

Shot 2 of 4