Da Big Babes and China

[vicberg]

Guys,

I have to ask this question. In Jan, 1942, my opponent has just cross from Ichang east with 4000 AV. It's a stack of 30 units, actuall only 27, 3 more are still crossing. That's more than I have (10 divs) in the entire northern china area PLUS he has another stack of 27 north of Nanyang. Something doesn't seem right with that.

What changes were made to China in this scenario? Were they bumped up? More supply and/or replacements?

I can understand an attack like this in 1944 (possibly 43), but no friken way in Jan 42.

[noguaranteeofsanity]

No changes were made to the Chinese in Da Babes, that I am aware of and the Chinese OOB or supply are identical to stock. Most of the changes were limited to adding additional ships, tweaking AAA effectiveness, as well as altering base force and engineer units. There was no changes to Chinese replacements or supply, as far as I know.

Im not exactly sure which sides you and your opponent are playing, but there are a lot of Chinese units at the start of the game and while it might take time, it would not be impossible to pull 30 units together to launch an attack, but they are still Chinese units, with poor leaders and very low levels of experience, support and supply.

[Kitakami]

I play as the Japanese commander of China in a Big Babes PBEM game. And yes, the Chines can do that (my opponent has around 28 units in CHangsha). But then, I got a lot of Chinese cities with resource and/or factory production almost intact... and I am still advancing to take more cities (March '42).

My piece of advice? Contain him where he's strong, and beat him to smithereens everywhere else. Those 2 stacks will be the last two standing but, if you play right, even those 2 will fall.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Guys,

I have to ask this question. In Jan, 1942, my opponent has just cross from Ichang east with 4000 AV. It's a stack of 30 units, actuall only 27, 3 more are still crossing. That's more than I have (10 divs) in the entire northern china area PLUS he has another stack of 27 north of Nanyang. Something doesn't seem right with that.

What changes were made to China in this scenario? Were they bumped up? More supply and/or replacements?

I can understand an attack like this in 1944 (possibly 43), but no friken way in Jan 42.

Ichang is the one place the Chinese can beat the Japanese at the beginning of the game.

[vicberg]

And he took ichang at high cost. Whenever dealing with mods, these sort of questions have to be asked. Witpqs has been able to stack up units without fear (yet) of losing his supply lines. I'm starting to move to stretch his units, plus I'm starting to get reinforcements that allow me to form more divs.

The biggest difference is an allied player that actually contests in the beginning. It's much more effective than turtling. I'm certainly shocked to see 4000 AV in one spot, but I can understand why. In my scen 2 PBEM, my opponent is turtling and its Jan 15th (instead of Feb 1st with Witpqs) and I have all of luzon, singapore, java, changsha, palembang will fall within a few days, and I'm starting movements for phase 2. In my game with Witpqs, I'm nowhere near that. Nothing has fallen yet and won't for probably a month.

Part of that is the difference in scenarios and da big babes brings a real dose of reality to the situation.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

...shocked to see 4000 AV in one spot...

Because of pretty darn good Fog of War in AE, this is part of the deal with playing a human opponent. Once you see something that you really didn't anticipate, you have to wonder what else...

It transcends the technical aspects of AE and really takes it to a whole 'nother level.

[:D]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: vicberg

...shocked to see 4000 AV in one spot...

Because of pretty darn good Fog of War in AE, this is part of the deal with playing a human opponent. Once you see something that you really didn't anticipate, you have to wonder what else...

It transcends the technical aspects of AE and really takes it to a whole 'nother level.

[:D]

The game starts with the Chinese about to take Ichang. I was never able to pull it off again.

[Bliztk]

After filling the mandatory garrisons China Exp force has 11500 unassigned AV points in Dababes. So go figure a counterattacking force.

In my new game vs Herwin I have abandoned Ichang on day 1.  Will try to come back in force later [:)]

[witpqs]

You guys are right that Ichang is the only place in China that the Chinese can capture at an early stage, but that's not what we're talking about. I did capture Ichang, but it actually was harder than expected. Vic was even bringing in reinforcements and I was too. The turn after Ichang fell an IJA reinforcement crossed the river (it was forgotten to stop it moving) and it was wiped out in the shock attack.

So we are sitting there for a bit with my forces in Ichang and Vic's retreated forces in the woods across the river. So I brought in more forces, then sent them all across the river to smite those previously retreated units. It worked, and the total of about 4,000 AS doing it caused the query.

[Kitakami]

That is the very reason I vacate Ichang ASAP. Those units, defending behind the river, are a much better setup IMHO.

[racndoc]

The Chinese can also overrun Sinyang and Kweisui in the 1st 2 weeks of the war if Japan doesnt move reinforcements into those cities immediately.

[vicberg]

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance
The Chinese can also overrun Sinyang and Kweisui in the 1st 2 weeks of the war if Japan doesnt move reinforcements into those cities immediately.

Yes they can....I had one opponent move right onto sinyang directly and it took weeks to dislodge them. Chinese in the rough are a totally diff story than chinese in the open.

After filling the mandatory garrisons China Exp force has 11500 unassigned AV points in Dababes. So go figure a counterattacking force.

In my new game vs Herwin I have abandoned Ichang on day 1. Will try to come back in force later

I'm assuming this includes Manchuko. House rules vary, but I need to pay full PP for reassign a div, that means around 1500 PP cost per div. There's no way there's 11k of AV starting in China (not manchuko)

What I'm talking about is the actual AV of the forces involved for this chinese attack. My first impression was shock and questioning the mod. That's been answered...no changes.

I'm starting to see that an aggressive player, like Witpqs, can stack units and build that type of force. I personally believe he could exploit the stacking and smash my troops in multiple areas, but if he does fail anywhere it would open him up to some serious ugliness. George...look at the watch again...repeat after me....attack in China...attack in China....at the count of three you will wake up.....

My goal is to start forcing him to defend more areas. It's good tactics on his part and dumb tactics on my part if I don't force a change in his dispositions. I've never seen this in most of my PBEMS, but that's also because most of my opponents turtle...they aren't aggressive, and they don't stack.

So, don't stress on the AV...initial shock on my part and result of playing a good player.

[Central Blue]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Guys,

I have to ask this question. In Jan, 1942, my opponent has just cross from Ichang east with 4000 AV. It's a stack of 30 units, actuall only 27, 3 more are still crossing. That's more than I have (10 divs) in the entire northern china area PLUS he has another stack of 27 north of Nanyang. Something doesn't seem right with that.

What changes were made to China in this scenario? Were they bumped up? More supply and/or replacements?

I can understand an attack like this in 1944 (possibly 43), but no friken way in Jan 42.

I think this has more to do with the fact that the Chinese might have been able to seek to clinch with the Japanese more than they may have in real life because they were distracted by their internal political considerations geared to the expectation that Japan would lose the war; so they had to maneuver and preserve forces accordingly.

With the elimination of "Death Star" artillery, and the absence of political division, there are more opportunities for the Chinese to make use of their weight of troops to bog the Japanese, even though they can't fight like Patton or Guderian.

Chinese supply is not quite so critical as it will become once the supply route from Rangoon is cut, and before the air supply route is up and running. Even then, I think there is room for them to clinch defensively, if not offensively. And with the judicious use of political points, they are not entirely without good leaders, and the surviving units will only get tougher.

I suspect that we will see more of this in all scenario versions where house rules prevent early strategic bombing, as the Allied player has little to lose and much to gain by grappling the Japanese well forward of what conventional wisdom seems to dictate.

But hey, I have only practiced against the AI. So consider the source. [:D]

[Bliztk]

It not includes Kwangtung army. We have the HR than restricted command units cannot leave if not bought out. You get 11589 AV if my calculations are correct. You get 800 AV more in mid January 1942.

Sure, you get your japanese forces disrupted in a 25% on average at the start, but in two weeks of rest/training the problem is solved. 

Also do not underestimate the ability of forts to stop the chinese cold. In my previous game I had Sinyang being assaulted by several chinese corps unsuccesfully, being hold by a defensive force consisting of several Mixed RGTs until the reinforcements arrived.

Also Japan has fast units (Calvary and Armor) that makes them vulnerable to encirclement, and once you get the Peiping-Shangai rail line operational, the Chinese are playing with fire if they are on the offensive, because the IJA can concentrate ala Clausewitz in 10 days.