"Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

[Oberst_Klink]

There it is...

[sPzAbt653]

Like others I have been following unit histories and here are a few for consideration:

328 Inf (39corps, 2pzG), arrives t80, 7-4-42, but historically arrived with 9th Army 4-42. It went to France 11 or 12-42, returned 6 or 9-43 (which is after the scenario ends).

5 Inf (5corps, 3pzG) was in the central sector with 5 corps, 9th Army until 11-41 when it was sent to France to refit as 5 leichte. Returned to 10 corp, 16 Army, 2-42, redesignated 5 jager 7-42, stayed in the Staraya Russa sector until 1944. In the scenario 5 Inf never leaves and 5 jager (55corp, 2pzG) arrives t80.

8 Inf (8corps, AOK9) part of 8 corp, 9th Army until 11 or 12-41 when it was sent to France to refit as 8 leichte, returned 3-42 and sent to 10 corp, 16 Army, redesignated 8 jager 6-42. In the scenario 8 Inf never leaves and 8 jager (59corps, AOK4) arrives t78 or 79.

For both the 5th and 8th, the 'leichte' to 'jager' change appears to have been in name only, so maybe the original Infantry units can withdraw and the Jager versions can arrive later.

[sPzAbt653]

Tigers first arrived on the east front in 8-42 with sPzAbt.502, but were deployed in small numbers and had little effect. At the time of the Stalingrad crisis, available Tigers were organised into sPzAbt.503 and sent to AGS. Maybe in the scenario sPzAbt.503 can enter 1-3-43 (with the original organisation of 20 Tigers and 25 IIIn's). It didn't convert to the 45 Tiger organisation until 4-43. As the scenario ends around that time, it probably doesn't need to be represented. A suggestion:

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

There it is...

I like the new German and Russia chrome quite a lot. Just a small bit of regret you didn't work from the latest file so a number of edits (including a couple of tricky and time-consuming ones) aren't in the events. I'm going to do a little inventory of these and see how tricky it is to get this file up to date.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Like others I have been following unit histories and here are a few for consideration:

328 Inf (39corps, 2pzG), arrives t80, 7-4-42, but historically arrived with 9th Army 4-42. It went to France 11 or 12-42, returned 6 or 9-43 (which is after the scenario ends).

5 Inf (5corps, 3pzG) was in the central sector with 5 corps, 9th Army until 11-41 when it was sent to France to refit as 5 leichte. Returned to 10 corp, 16 Army, 2-42, redesignated 5 jager 7-42, stayed in the Staraya Russa sector until 1944. In the scenario 5 Inf never leaves and 5 jager (55corp, 2pzG) arrives t80.

8 Inf (8corps, AOK9) part of 8 corp, 9th Army until 11 or 12-41 when it was sent to France to refit as 8 leichte, returned 3-42 and sent to 10 corp, 16 Army, redesignated 8 jager 6-42. In the scenario 8 Inf never leaves and 8 jager (59corps, AOK4) arrives t78 or 79.

For both the 5th and 8th, the 'leichte' to 'jager' change appears to have been in name only, so maybe the original Infantry units can withdraw and the Jager versions can arrive later.

Good ones got 'em.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Tigers first arrived on the east front in 8-42 with sPzAbt.502, but were deployed in small numbers and had little effect. At the time of the Stalingrad crisis, available Tigers were organised into sPzAbt.503 and sent to AGS. Maybe in the scenario sPzAbt.503 can enter 1-3-43 (with the original organisation of 20 Tigers and 25 IIIn's). It didn't convert to the 45 Tiger organisation until 4-43. As the scenario ends around that time, it probably doesn't need to be represented. A suggestion:

A fun unit and another excellent piece of chrome. Let's do it.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: briantopp

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

There it is...

I like the new German and Russia chrome quite a lot. Just a small bit of regret you didn't work from the latest file so a number of edits (including a couple of tricky and time-consuming ones) aren't in the events. I'm going to do a little inventory of these and see how tricky it is to get this file up to date.

Ok this wasnt too bad. PO orders are going to take awhile but worth another look in any event.

[Panama]

Don't know how badly this would mess things up but... All of the Soviet 76mm divisional guns were also AT guns. They were the 76mm AT guns you see in the Soviet AT brigades and their secondary role in a division was as an AT gun. The F22 was the one the Germans used until their own PAK 40 became widely available. I suppose they might have used the F22 USV also. Not sure.

About 3000 F-22 at wars start. About 9800 F-22 USV from 1939 to 1942. ZIS-3 was the most common from February 1942 to wars end. About 15000 during your scenario.

Most of the F-22 and F-22 USV that began the war were lost (early on). So maybe just going with the ZIS-3 would work best.

Of course you would have to edit the unit db.

[briantopp]

Here is the current build. This scenario:

- provides a comprehensive re-label of both OOBs into German and latinized Russian, courtesy of Obert_Klinck with many thanks. Took a little while to get used to it but it's growing on me...

- all of the formations have revised PO orders. This is a first draft of this redo -- no guarantees -- just starting to playtest it. Basically, I'm experimenting with looser, less detailed orders to see how Elmer does with them.

- some previous edits folded back into this file (tank arrivals; 8-panzer fixes; various other tweaks and corrections).

[BigDuke66]

Really nice build, I especially like the German naming now it's like I'm used too.

Is anyone taking a look at the Luftwaffe?
Would be nice to have real Geschwader names, also I wonder if smaller units(size of a Gruppe) are needed/not needed.

@sPzAbt653
Nice findings, I really didn't think about divisions that converted.
I mentioned the 328. ID already but afaik it was dispersed among 9. Armee not sure in how small groups so maybe it wouldn't be bad to stay with July 42 as arrival date.

[samba_liten]

I did look at the Luftwaffe. I planned to look at the VVS as well. Then i caught the flu.[:(] As a result i've done little but [>:] for the last few days. Now that i am more or less recovered i will try to figure out the VVS as well, and we will see where that leads.

[Oberst_Klink]

You're busy with your project, too. In case you got the Lw/VVS Units, let us from STALAG13 have a look and we'll start integrating them, with your and Brian's kind permission, into Battles of Moscow 41-43.

[samba_liten]

What i did for the LW is in this thread already. I've still got the open office spreadsheet in case you want it. I haven't got anything on the VVS yet, but i have a couple of sources to look through, thanks to yourself and Panama.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

You're busy with your project, too. In case you got the Lw/VVS Units, let us from STALAG13 have a look and we'll start integrating them, with your and Brian's kind permission, into Battles of Moscow 41-43.

I'm all for an historical treatment of both air forces. The challenge here is that both must be done concurrently to preserve game balance. The current build is modelled on "Guderian's Blitzkreig II" by the Gamers, which abstracts the air war to some extent (artillery units are also basically abstracted in this build).

[Oberst_Klink]

No problem. I'll have a look before I change the names anyway. The advantage is, that we can use the Geschwader (air wings), not the Gruppen (groups/squadrons). So, KG7 - He-111, KG1 - Do17 or a similar approach. Funny thing is... I never saw anybody complaining, that we can't divide the air groups in TOAW!

[samba_liten]

Depends on how close you want to be to history. You see, in many cases only parts of the Geschwader were on the eastern front. An example that springs to mind is JG26 of channel front fame (The Abbeville Boys). Most of the Geschwader stayed in the west while I./JG26 was sent east for about a year. An other example worth mentioning might be JG54, which was usually based just south of Leningrad, and thus outside the scope of the scenario. However, during the period of the scenario parts of it did come south.

While i am on the topic, i did not have time to check which Geschwaders were in the area the scenario deals with. I excluded one or two that i know for a fact were never there though.

Now, on to the VVS. I can tell you which aviation divisions belonged to which front, and which army. This on a monthly basis. I can tell you which aviation regiments were in existence during the period of the scenario.

I can, as yet, NOT tell you which regiment belonged to which division, nor what they were equipped with.

[samba_liten]

VVS part 1

Code: Select all

Front	Army		Unit			Source:http://tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1941/19411001.html
 Western Front			23 bad			
 			31 sad			
 			43 sad			
 			46 sad			
 			467 sad			
 Reserve Front						
 	24th		38 sad			
 			10 iap			
 			163 iap			
 			66shap			
 	43rd		10 sad			
 			12 sad			
 Bryansk Front			24 bap			
 			6 reserve aviation group (1shap+1 bap)			
 	13th		11 sad			
 			60 sad			
 			61 sad			
 South-Western Front						
 			36 iad pvo			
 			14 sad			
 			19 sad			
 			63 sad			
 			75 sad			
 			76 sad			
 			316 rap			
 			1 reserve aviation group (3 iap, 3 bap, 3 shap)			
 			4 reserve aviation group ( 2 iap, 1 shap, 1bap)			
 	
 

[samba_liten]

Part 2 Explanation of terms to follow shortly.

Code: Select all

Separate Armies						
 	4th					
 			2 reserve aviation group (2 iap, 1bap, 1 shap)			
 	51st		182 iap			
 			247 iap			
 			253 iap			
 			21 bap			
 			507 bap			
 			103 shap			
 Long Range Bomber Aviation			22 bap			
 			40 bap			
 			42 bap			
 			50 bap			
 			51 bap			
 			52 bap			
 			81 bap			
 Moscow Military District			6 IAK PVO (17 iap)			
 			77 sad			
 			441 iap		

[samba_liten]

iad = fighter aviation division
bad = bomber aviation division
shad = ground attack aviation division

As above but ending in p (e.g. iap) = regiments

PVO = a special formation intended to defend against enemy aviation

A regiment had 40 a/c
A division had 3 regiments + 4 spare a/c. = 124 a/c

In May '42 the aviation was reorganized into aviation armies, each consisting of 5 or more aviation divisions.

see here for my source and some pretty pictures of VVS fighters.

[Panama]

Because of how TOAW handles air units, is it a bad idea to mix different aircraft and types of aircraft? Since the air war is so abstract I've always thought it better to treat it as such and not go into too much detail.