Assigning/Forming New Support Units question

[Davekhps]

Okay, another one that's stumping me.

For purposes of discussion, let's say I have three HQs and one combat unit.

OKH
AGN
16th Army
1st Panzer Div

If I go into each HQ, I'll see support units for each.
OKH has construction battalions
AGN has construction battalions
16th Army has a whole slew of arty, Stugs, pioneers, flak, etc.
1st Panzer Div has nothing attached

Now, when I select ASSIGN/FORM for any of these levels, I'll see support units available.

Are these support units part of a "national pool" of available SU to form, or are they specific to that HQ?

I ask because I swear I've seen instances of SU I can assign/form to one chain of headquarters that I can't assign/form to another chain of headquarters. If I'm not imagining that, what would explain that difference?

Also, if I remove the SU at 16th Army HQ, does it end up assigned to AGN, or does it go into this notional national pool (one turn later)? What if I remove an SU assigned directly to 1st Panzer-- does it end up at the 16th Army HQ, a national pool, or elsewhere?

[ComradeP]

There is no abstracted pool, every support unit is in a HQ somewhere or relocating to it (indicated by an asterisk next to its name in the unit information screen of the HQ it's moving to).

Formations will tend to draw support units from a parent formation so if there's a construction battalion in AGN, you can move it to a lower HQ by selecting assign/form in that lower HQ.

[Davekhps]

So when I start a scenario, no changes yet made by me, and I click on assign/form at 16th Army, and it gives me options to assign/form support units, those SU are actually already sitting up one level at AGN? And if I go up to AGN, I'll see for myself those SU assigned to AGN there, ready to either be assigned down to 16th Army or assigned up to OKH?

(Pardon the basic easy-to-answer-myself question, I don't have the game in front of me to find this out for myself).

[Joel Billings]

A unit can look up the chain of command and take support units from any HQ back up the chain. So you see listed all support units in any of the HQ's going back up the chain all the way to high command.

[ComradeP]

As a further note on that: keep in mind that the assign/form menu is for the selected HQ only. You're tasking the HQ with attracting a support unit. You're not directly switching the HQ for the support unit, you're doing that indirectly. If you want to do it directly, you'll have to do so through the support unit's information screen and the HQ selection function in that screen (which will allow you to assign the support unit to a number of HQ's that are in range).

[Davekhps]

Thanks Joel, thanks CP, learned what I need to learn!

[vinnie71]

What happens if a division withraws and you leave an attached Stug battalion (for example) attached to it? Does it vanish altogether?

[kirkgregerson]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

As a further note on that: keep in mind that the assign/form menu is for the selected HQ only. You're tasking the HQ with attracting a support unit. You're not directly switching the HQ for the support unit, you're doing that indirectly. If you want to do it directly, you'll have to do so through the support unit's information screen and the HQ selection function in that screen (which will allow you to assign the support unit to a number of HQ's that are in range).

So this is a way to 'jump' support units across a chain? Say getting any siege arty SU up from AGS to AGN?

[ComradeP]

What happens if a division withraws and you leave an attached Stug battalion (for example) attached to it? Does it vanish altogether?

It should automatically be assigned to another HQ, probably it's higher HQ normally but I'm not entirely sure. It should not vanish.

So this is a way to 'jump' support units across a chain? Say getting any siege arty SU up from AGS to AGN?

Precisely.

[vinnie71]

One thing I'm not sure about is the following. Is it possible that support units are 'poached' from one unit to the other? Ex I have attached a Panzerjaeger unit with motorised division A which is part of Corps X, which also includes a second motorised division B. So can Division B actually take away Panzerjaeger unit from Division A?
 
I know its a bit contorted...

[karonagames]

Once a support unit is attached directly to a division it stays with that unit and can't be sent to support another unit's combat. To send it back to corps hq click the (x) next to the support unit in the TOE report.

I am sure there will be a lot of debate about the relative effectiveness of support units being directly attached vs. being in corps HQs. If your corps general is good he will make more rolls and the support units will get to more battles. If he is not so good and you have a "must win" battle, you can reduce the risk by attaching support units directly to the units involved.

[CarnageINC]

Great posting, learned a lot of new stuff, thanks all for explaining this stuff [&o]

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Once a support unit is attached directly to a division it stays with that unit and can't be sent to support another unit's combat. To send it back to corps hq click the (x) next to the support unit in the TOE report.

I am sure there will be a lot of debate about the relative effectiveness of support units being directly attached vs. being in corps HQs. If your corps general is good he will make more rolls and the support units will get to more battles. If he is not so good and you have a "must win" battle, you can reduce the risk by attaching support units directly to the units involved.

Agreed. I actually see a trend that most generals tend to commit artillery, pioneers and AA more often than not. What they don't seem to commit is armour units for some reason.

Maybe its just a fluke in my games but it is why I normally attach armour and Flak units at divisional level - the former to get them in action with my motorised units (and provide 'integral' armoured support with each division which is absent in 1941) and the latter... well I got a soft spot for history. German motorised formations tended to have flak battalions attached early on to them in order to be better able to weather soviet air attacks and provide added anti tank capability (88s all the way!). So I just hope that flak also doubles up as anti tank in game too...

I also believe that pioneer units directly attached to divisions improve the chances of breaking up urban defences. That way a general need only commit artillery in support rather than artillery and pioneers.

[karonagames]

So I just hope that flak also doubles up as anti tank in game too.

yes they do.

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

So I just hope that flak also doubles up as anti tank in game too.

yes they do.

Just great! Now all I need is to get those Flak units sitting pretty in cities, protecting Luftwaffe bases or with HQ's up to the front!

[karonagames]

The flak in Cities is very expensive to move - not sure the AP expense is worth it.

[vinnie71]

Thanks. Good to know. Otherwise it could turn out to be a bit of an exploit...
 
 But come to think of it, can we actually attach Luftwaffe flak units, say, from air bases to front line forces? In real life Goering was pretty adamant that that LW units remained under LW command...

[karonagames]

I only take the 88s away - Herman can keep the quad 20s etc. By 1943 when the Red Air Force can start going after your airfields, you may need to think about giving them back to Herman.

[vinnie71]

My thoughts exactly!

[SgtKachalin]

Great posting, learned a lot of new stuff, thanks all for explaining this stuff

+1. Thanks!