Victory Possible With Axis?

[PyleDriver]

@MechFO...Whats up with your ss's having the WinSnap crap. Dump it please...I noticed anther guy advertizing here also on his posts. Please I get enough at home already, can't we have a jell time...

[Tophat1815]

MechFO I noticed the soviet defenders were in fortification lvl 4 and had more artillery than the attacking German infantry. Are you certain its the aircraft dealing the damage and not entrenched infantry backed by 177 tubes of arty?

In the German defender example the Germans have more infantry than the soviet attackers and they are in lvl 3 fortifications,backed by 157 tubes of artillery yet you say its the airpower causing all the losses?

[Grouchy]

Tophat, the battle is paused after the Airphase has completed and before the ground phase started.

[karonagames]

@ MechFO I will be posting some test results in your original 1943 Air-Juggernaut thread, so that this thread does not get any more off topic.

[Grim.Reaper]

Just curious, if most people don't feel you have a chance to change history and win as the Germans, does that take away from the game? Will there ever be future variants included that make it more of a possibility? I'm not trying to make it unrealistic, but if you know from the start you can never win with the Germans, where does the fun come from? I'm purely speaking from a person would would only ever play the AI since I don't play multiplayer.

[karonagames]

Against the AI I think you can win on Normal settings by about turn 100-120. I think the "no win" comments are discussing PBEM play.

[Grim.Reaper]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Against the AI I think you can win on Normal settings by about turn 100-120. I think the "no win" comments are discussing PBEM play.

Ahhh...that makes me feel better.

[Tophat1815]

ORIGINAL: Grouchy

Tophat, the battle is paused after the Airphase has completed and before the ground phase started.

My mistake for not properly reading the test conditions,sorry about that. I'd be interested to see what the final battle results were for those attacks.

So the net result is that the air model will be given continued scrutiny as more players plow through game turns and report results? Sounds good to me......

In regard to "can the Axis win" I believe Hard Sarge has stated he has won Decisive Victories as both the Germans and Russians. Who knows what the verdict will be until we have some players play through the campaign.

If there is a consensus on evidence that the U-2 biplane is too powerful a bomber I'm sure its stats can be adjusted to make it less lethal. Granted the U-2 is only one component of a potential air issue,but it seems the one component people are agreeing on needing attention.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

@MechFO...Whats up with your ss's having the WinSnap crap. Dump it please...I noticed anther guy advertizing here also on his posts. Please I get enough at home already, can't we have a jell time...

he is using a trail program and hasn't bought the key, that is how they work those (hypersnap, that I use, would have a box with there name in it, I use it, so I bought it)

[karonagames]

My mistake for not properly reading the test conditions,sorry about that. I'd be interested to see what the final battle results were for those attacks.

I have posted some test results using the latest beta patch in the 1943 Air Juggernaut thread which was where this issue was originally raised.

[raizer]

read Glantz...despite the delays that were self inflicted by the Germans, leading to the russians building even more belts, Manstein was still a strong advocate for the attack-even in late june. I am not a Manstein hater, in fact, I think he was the finest, and most capable general in all the war. But he did err in Kursk, just as he did when he signed the kommisar order. Manstein made a grave mistake in being a proponent of Kursk

Army Group S was crushed as a result of it stepping off in July against all those belts...LAH, Das Reich, and Totenkoph-along with GrossD and 11, 3 panzer (im missing another one) were all smashed. These were probably Germanys best mobile divisions and yah they gave more than they got, but at what price? When it was called off, they were shells. GD had like 11 tanks left

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: raizer

read Glantz...despite the delays that were self inflicted by the Germans, leading to the russians building even more belts, Manstein was still a strong advocate for the attack-even in late june. I am not a Manstein hater, in fact, I think he was the finest, and most capable general in all the war. But he did err in Kursk, just as he did when he signed the kommisar order. Manstein made a grave mistake in being a proponent of Kursk

Army Group S was crushed as a result of it stepping off in July against all those belts...LAH, Das Reich, and Totenkoph-along with GrossD and 11, 3 panzer (im missing another one) were all smashed. These were probably Germanys best mobile divisions and yah they gave more than they got, but at what price? When it was called off, they were shells. GD had like 11 tanks left

I have read Glanz and a lot more besides, in answer to the question posed by the tread (Victory possible with Axis) I was making some general points as to how changes in German strategy would have improved their chances. At that level, details of how the Battle of Kursk was fought are irrelevant, the point is that the battle should not have been fought at that time and place. My comment was that one of the possible German strategy changes is -

Not in attacking a front in 1943 that your enemy has spent months preparing, but using Manstein's back-hand strategy, pull back and wait to hit your enemy when he comes out of his defences, which he must do, or accept a draw.

Early in 1943 when the German strategy for that year's operations was in progress, Manstein's advice was to allow the Russians to attack first and then strike 'on the back-hand' (repeat the success of Kharkov 1942). Guderian's advice was 'why attack at all that year', however Hitler decided to proceed with Zitadelle and delay for the Panthers (which then broke down). The result is history. I would say that later, once the decision had been made, Manstein was trying to make it work, had he been in command, there would not have been an attack into such well prepared positions.

So that's the discussion, would some changes in German stategy in 41/42/43 been enough to improve their chances to win. I don't think a draw was ever possible, as the Allies are bound to win an extended war of attrition. [:)]