The Soviet Air Juggernaut in 43

[karonagames]

They are not "stopping" them, and the losses they are taking are much higher than in previous tests - they are only shooting down 1-2 for every one they are losing compared to the incredibly high numbers I was seeing in previous tests, but I think the net effect of breaking up Bomber squadron cohesion, has reduced the "Air Juggernaut" to more manageable levels of damage. I haven't played Eagle Day/BTR for a long time, but isn't that what the RAF squadrons would do to the LW bombers?

[ComradeP]

What I thought the fix did, was force the AI to commit a more reasonable number of defensive fighters. That is clearly not the case. I'd guess there are at least 100 fighters available for interception, so why does the AI only send 10 or 20?

[karonagames]

hanks for taking a look, however, from your screenshots we are measuring to fundamentally different things.

You are measuring the effect of Ground Support against the Defender. I don't have any problem with the balance as it is.

All my test have been about the effects on the Attacker.

My apologies, my mistake - I will test this.

edit: I am so used to Not attacking on the First turn as the Axis!

[Helpless]

Theoretically the difference between attacker and defender is fort/terrain bonus, which provides great deal of protection for the defender.

[karonagames]

Yes I am seeing that in the Proper test I am doing.

@Mech FO can you confirm that you did not adjust any of the Air doctrine settings you just used the default?

[karonagames]

OK, I think I have finally got my head round this: 1943, standard air doctrines, some fighter sweeps. So this is what I am seeing now with the interception working correctly and when the Axis Attacks:

1 The Axis Air AI decides to support the attack and will send 100 bombers and 50 fighters as escort (all numbers approx. and can be multiplied pro-rata)

2. The SU Air AI sees the air support coming in and sends 50-100 fighters to intercept the axis (this was nor working in V1.0)

3. The SU Air AI sends defensive air support to disrupt and damage Axis ground units that have left the protection of level 3-4 entrenchments. These numbers are very variable but I did not see the 1000+ plane sorties that they were sending out on their turns.

4. The Axis AI sees the defensive air support coming and sends 30-60 fighters to intercept (not working in v1.0)

For each air combat, depending on the die rolls, it is possible that escorts and bombers will not meet up and/or the interceptors don't make the interceptions so there are lots of combinations, but generally when the number of fighters is greater than the number of bombers then you know that the bombers have escorts and there are interceptors going after the enemy air support.

If there are less fighters than bombers then you won't know if they are the escorts or the interceptors until you see the combat results.

With interception working correctly the attackers losses have reduced from 10 - 15 men per bomber to 5-8 i.e. roughly half of what you were seeing with V1.0.

So the suggestions I made to your original post still apply - you need to get the SU fighters flying missions before you attack, so you can reduce their readiness levels and increase their chance of missing their escort and interception rolls.

In the screen shots below you will see the results of the different combinations of escort/interceptions.

[karonagames]

1.

[karonagames]

2.

[karonagames]

3

[karonagames]

4.

[karonagames]

5. this is what you hope for- that the su loses interceptors and escorts:
edit: The losses are from - artillery I was late pressing the button.

[karonagames]

6. GE bombers didn't get escort and got hammered.

[ComradeP]

I'd still much rather see more interceptors than having to fly fighter sweeps that will cause fighters from both sides to fly missions prior to the time when you want them to (that doesn't only apply to the Soviets, after all, as you're still using your own fighters too).

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

OK, I think I have finally got my head round this: 1943, standard air doctrines, some fighter sweeps. So this is what I am seeing now with the interception working correctly and when the Axis Attacks:

1 The Axis Air AI decides to support the attack and will send 100 bombers and 50 fighters as escort (all numbers approx. and can be multiplied pro-rata)

2. The SU Air AI sees the air support coming in and sends 50-100 fighters to intercept the axis (this was nor working in V1.0)

3. The SU Air AI sends defensive air support to disrupt and damage Axis ground units that have left the protection of level 3-4 entrenchments. These numbers are very variable but I did not see the 1000+ plane sorties that they were sending out on their turns.

4. The Axis AI sees the defensive air support coming and sends 30-60 fighters to intercept (not working in v1.0)

For each air combat, depending on the die rolls, it is possible that escorts and bombers will not meet up and/or the interceptors don't make the interceptions so there are lots of combinations, but generally when the number of fighters is greater than the number of bombers then you know that the bombers have escorts and there are interceptors going after the enemy air support.

If there are less fighters than bombers then you won't know if they are the escorts or the interceptors until you see the combat results.

With interception working correctly the attackers losses have reduced from 10 - 15 men per bomber to 5-8 i.e. roughly half of what you were seeing with V1.0.

So the suggestions I made to your original post still apply - you need to get the SU fighters flying missions before you attack, so you can reduce their readiness levels and increase their chance of missing their escort and interception rolls.

In the screen shots below you will see the results of the different combinations of escort/interceptions.

Thanks for clearing up some the mechanics.

I agree that working fighter interceptions alleviate some of the symptoms, however, I don't see that it adresses the root of the problem.

IMO the question is, should 150 tac bombers, if unopposed, be able to stop a divisional attack cold. At the moment that is the reality, and this also gives the Soviets the ability to shut down even local Axis counteroffensives over 2/3 of the front at an early period. I don't see how this bears even a passing resemblance with historicity. While the Soviets had Air Superiority over most of the front by 43, even in 45 they were unable to single handidly shut down daylight Axis offensive operations with tac air alone. I doubt the Axis was able to do that at any point either even in 41, and their tactical air doctrine/control was quite a bit better.

If this very strong tac capability is a question of balance or to achieve some game design objective, than fair enough, but than it should also be discussed in those terms.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I'd still much rather see more interceptors than having to fly fighter sweeps that will cause fighters from both sides to fly missions prior to the time when you want them to (that doesn't only apply to the Soviets, after all, as you're still using your own fighters too).

Agreed, otherwise the Axis fighter force will be depleted even faster by attrition/flak losses.

[karonagames]

I am sure there will be a lot of debate about the impact of variance within the game. The number of times that air support will get through unopposed will be relatively small compared to the total number of attacks that will occur, and as #5 shows they can get blown out of the sky too, so while there is a lot of variance at the tactical level, it evens out at the strategic level, as the game does produce results with an acceptable variance from historical results.

Some of the last AIvAI test results were amazingly close to the historical results.

[karonagames]

I'd still much rather see more interceptors than having to fly fighter sweeps that will cause fighters from both sides to fly missions prior to the time when you want them to (that doesn't only apply to the Soviets, after all, as you're still using your own fighters too).

I only suggest doing it on the first turn to take the edge off SU supply,readiness and fatigue levels. Thereafter, normal operations will reduce SU operational intensity.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: MechFO


Thanks for clearing up some the mechanics.

I agree that working fighter interceptions alleviate some of the symptoms, however, I don't see that it adresses the root of the problem.

IMO the question is, should 150 tac bombers, if unopposed, be able to stop a divisional attack cold. At the moment that is the reality, and this also gives the Soviets the ability to shut down even local Axis counteroffensives over 2/3 of the front at an early period. I don't see how this bears even a passing resemblance with historicity. While the Soviets had Air Superiority over most of the front by 43, even in 45 they were unable to single handidly shut down daylight Axis offensive operations with tac air alone. I doubt the Axis was able to do that at any point either even in 41, and their tactical air doctrine/control was quite a bit better.

If this very strong tac capability is a question of balance or to achieve some game design objective, than fair enough, but than it should also be discussed in those terms.

FWIW I agree

[Helpless]

me too [:)]

[karonagames]

IMO the question is, should 150 tac bombers, if unopposed, be able to stop a divisional attack cold.

In the attacks I made, only #6 was a "hold" result, the others were successful and this was attacking level 4 entrenchments. 5 out of 6 successes isn't bad.