Non allied military ships refueling at my ports.

[forsaken1111]

I would really enjoy alternate play modes of that type.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

[Bateman1982]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

I think this sounds sensible.

Not sure how to get around the last issue you mention in terms of the escort not being allowed to refuel.
Perhaps ships of escort class could be allowed to refuel at other ports with a free trade agreement in place, but refueling any larger military ship would need a MDP.

This would make it advantageous to use escorts to... escort things. As they would be able to refuel where other ships could not.

There may be a better way to do it, just haven't thought of anything else yet.

[ASHBERY76]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

I agree with this 100%.

[J HG T]

We concur.

I haven't had any serious problems with this thing. But now that people have come up with great ways to to change it to something more controllable, I have to agree that this issue needs some attentation.

The "Free trade agreement for civilian ships and MDP for military" sounds best and easiest to implement for me.

[Webbco]

I think this is a great idea in theory but in reality, if in a time of war, this might still be a huge burden for your own empire.

What about receiving a "request" from an ally fleet (i.e. one that shares a mutual defence pact with you) when they desire to refuel their ships at one of your colonies?

If you choose to say "no" then your relationship with them could be damaged slightly.

[Haree78]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

What about independents though? Can anyone fuel from them?

Also these changes that my exploration ships would only be able to fuel through free trade agreements is going to make exploring the galaxy a LOT harder. Perhaps it should be?

[forsaken1111]

Personally I just double or more my exploration ship's fuel load so they can fly across the galaxy and back if need be.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Haree78

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

What about independents though? Can anyone fuel from them?

Also these changes that my exploration ships would only be able to fuel through free trade agreements is going to make exploring the galaxy a LOT harder. Perhaps it should be?

How about this: Independent colonies could be treated same as empires with a FTA. So Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are able to refuel, military ships
should never be able to refuel there.

Independent traders should be able to refuel everywhere.

Concerning exploration ships, yes, it makes it harder to explore the whole galaxy but in my opinion this is more realistic. Would you like an explorer, from an empire you don´t have good enough relations with
to sign a FTA, sniffing in your backyard just because he is able to refuel anywhere he likes?

[elliotg]

Thanks for all the feedback above.

For the first ROTS update I'll be implementing the following changes in this area:
- add new setting in Empire Policy screen: "Refuel Other Empires Military Ships"
- this setting will determine when military ships of another empire are allowed to refuel at your colonies or bases
- the three available values for this setting will be: when not at war or have trade sanctions (same as currently), when have Free Trade Agreement, when have Mutual Defense Pact or Protectorate
- the default setting here will be "when have Free Trade Agreement"

This setting only applies to military ships - freighters, mining ships, passenger ships, exploration ships and construction ships will all be able to refuel at any colony or base of an empire you are not at war with or have trade sanctions against (as currently). It is important that the civilian economy is not hampered and that trade happens as easily as possible. For example, it would make little sense if a freighter could transport cargo to a spaceport, but not also refuel there.

Note that independent colonies will always refuel military ships of any empire - they are effectively neutral.

[ASHBERY76]

Will the A.I players use the default state.
 
Good news anyway.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

Free trade agreement should only allow civilian ships to purchase goods between spaceports
while the Mutual Defense Pact would allow military vessels.

+1 I agree totally with this.

[Haree78]

Sounds like a nice change.

My only concern....will we be able to see what other Empires have chosen for the above?

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Thanks for all the feedback above.

For the first ROTS update I'll be implementing the following changes in this area:
- add new setting in Empire Policy screen: "Refuel Other Empires Military Ships"
- this setting will determine when military ships of another empire are allowed to refuel at your colonies or bases
- the three available values for this setting will be: when not at war or have trade sanctions (same as currently), when have Free Trade Agreement, when have Mutual Defense Pact or Protectorate
- the default setting here will be "when have Free Trade Agreement"

This setting only applies to military ships - freighters, mining ships, passenger ships, exploration ships and construction ships will all be able to refuel at any colony or base of an empire you are not at war with or have trade sanctions against (as currently). It is important that the civilian economy is not hampered and that trade happens as easily as possible. For example, it would make little sense if a freighter could transport cargo to a spaceport, but not also refuel there.

Note that independent colonies will always refuel military ships of any empire - they are effectively neutral.

Thank you for the fast reaction!

Just for confirmation: this setting applies as global settings for all empires?

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Thank you for the fast reaction!

Just for confirmation: this setting applies as global settings for all empires?

As he said, it is an empire policy option so it would apply to your own empire.

[Aures]

forsaken111, what people are concerned about is whether and how AI empires will make use of this option. If the default is a free trade agreement is required for military ships to refuel, does that mean your own military ships will not able to refuel at any AI empire locations? If it is based on something like caution, then you will be able to refuel at say an Atuuk port without a free trade agreement (even though they give them away to basically anyone) while you would need a free trade agreement to refuel at a Zenox port (with whom it is much more difficult to get a free trade agreement). I'm sure something sensible can be worked out, but it is not obvious to me how the AI should make use of this option.

The other concern people have is about being able to tell what setting an AI empire is using. Will you have to select a ship and then check whether refueling at an AI port is an option? Fortunately, we already have the refueling point icon so it should be straightforward to see whether you can refuel at an AI port without attempting to give the order. Unfortunately, that makes it hard to distinguish between an empire that will not let your military ships refuel and one will but just happens to have no available refueling points. Maybe it should say in the diplomacy screen whether an empire will let you refuel at their ports? There are two ways that could be done, either it could just tell you whether you are currently allowed to refuel (without explicitly stating what setting the AI empire is using) or it could explicitly tell you their setting and what that means given your current diplomatic relationhip with them.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Thank you for the fast reaction!

Just for confirmation: this setting applies as global settings for all empires?

As he said, it is an empire policy option so it would apply to your own empire.

Basically, because it sounds like you say, that was the reason for my question. [;)]

I hope it was not meant this way, because it would give the player a huge and unfair advantage over the
AI empires.
I could refuel my fleet at enemy stations and send them tumbling into economical crisis by clicking a button, while
the same does not apply to my empire. Same with AI empire vs. AI empire.

I would prefer that this setting applies to all empires in interaction with every other empire.

[forsaken1111]

Ahh, it was unclear what you meant LoBaron. The setting is an empire policy, so it affects each empire individually I would imagine, including the AI.

Aures: Yes I know all that, thank you for your condescension. It seemed like he was asking if this was a global setting such as a game option which you set for all empires rather than something you change during a game.

[LoBaron]

forsaken I am still not sure if we are talking about the same thing:
 
An empire policy can be changed during the game so this leads to some problems concerning this specific setting:
 
- do the AI empires have any other option than the default setting?
- if the answer is yes, can the AI empires also change this setting at will during the game?
- if yes, is this visible somewhere?
- if you change your policy setting during the game will this affect the settings for other empires (as it is currently intended the answer seems to be no)
 
 
At least as I see it this setting should be
 
- global (no possibility to change for each empire individually)
- not changeable during a game (I think such an option would favour the human player as he can guesstimate the
consequences far better than an AI could)
 
If the above isn´t the case this could unbalance the game IMHO.
 
 

[forsaken1111]

Yes, I misunderstood your question as something else. I too would like to know exactly how this will be implemented.