Advice on preparing for your first winter.

[Davekhps]

Looking for playtester advice here. I'm playing Axis right now, but advice for either side is welcome.

My 1941 Axis CG is at the start of turn 17, just about to hit mud. I'm already tightening my lines. I failed to take Leningrad on my "grand sweep" east of Lake Ilmen, so I'm bringing back my panzers to the rear and placing infantry in front (note for future games: if you don't aim for/luck out with that hasty attack to shut down the Baltic port, you need more troops than AGN to take Leningrad-- either another infantry or panzer army). In AGC, I launched a last attack that should take Rzhev and pocket some more troops north of Smolensk. In AGS, I've launched a late attack that should take Dnepeprotrovsk and hopefully clear out most of the area north of the Crimea (alas, I have nothing in the Crimea yet), but I won't match the historical rate of advance (Stalino/Rostov).

Casualties / captured are about 300K vs. 3 million. Don't recall the AFV count off the top of my head. I think my air losses are higher than normal, but again, can't prove it either way right now.

I'm not thrilled with my rate of advance-- Leningrad was pretty much a failure, and I would have liked to have reached a line of Orel-Kursk-Stalino-Rostov and be entering the Crimea by now, but AGS didn't have the mobility do so. But I did make some grand pockets along the way and captured a lot of troops and equipment.

Anyway, that's the general situation. (I'll add a screenshot later when I get home).

Here's what I'm doing for the mud/winter turns, would like to know if I'm doing it right (or being too cautious).

1. Placing a double-line checkerboard of single-division infantry along a line Velikiye Luki - Vyazma - Briansk - Korenovo - Poltava. Most should all be at fort 5 by the blizzard. (Is this wise? Should I keep the second line of infantry right behind the first in RESERVE? Or should I break down to regiments instead and use the third regiments as RESERVE?)

Note that I have yet to figure out what to do with the Romanians. Form a line with 11th Army German forces with Romanians in support, or vice versa?

2. On turn 16 I began pulling back half of 2 and 3 Panzer Groups to 10+ hexes back along rail lines to refit. Once the fall mud is over, these will be my fire brigade reserves (under my operational control, not under the RESERVE function). The panzers currently deployed up until the blizzard hits will pull back to refit over the rest of the winter and the spring mud turns to become the spearhead for my spring offensive.

3. I intend to place most (all) of my air force in the national reserve to refit over the mud / winter.

4. I intend to reduce my infantry TOEs to a lower percentage (80%? 75%?).

5. Using about 200 stored admin points, I intend to create a line of fortified zones one checkerboard hex back behind the double-line mentioned in #1. If/when my first checkerboard crumbles, the first line will fall back to that third line. Half my panzers in #2 will be in reserve to defend that second line.

6. Supply is good. Railheads extend throughout AGN and AGC. AGS is a different story-- I'm probably going to relocate one of the AGC FBDs down south to build up the network there. I have adequate garrisons in all my rear cities, although I expect to tweak those a bit in coming turns (I may try the mix of 1 fortified region, 1 regiment where possible in order to free up the handful of German combat divisions I have in certain cities). I do expect to have to relocate some mobile units to the rear to deal with any partisan flare-ups, however. (Hungarians, Slovaks and maybe the SS mobile brigades).

7. Come spring, I intend to use what forces I have to launch a second strike at Leningrad (again aiming to isolate, if not take, the Ladoga ports), then come at Moscow from the north. I just think I'll have better luck up there than in the south. Also, I'm thinking another round of airfield attacks on the first spring turn are in order... is that wise, or a waste of planes?

So, experts: anything I'm doing wrong? Am I too conservative? Or am I too optimistic that this defense will do anything come winter? Do I still need airpower come winter or can I put them in reserve until spring?

What else should I be looking for? I'm expecting Soviet numbers to be ginormous by spring 1942, but what about their combat capability? I've already noticed that it's harder to dislodge Soviet units by turns 14-16 than it was just a few turns before, I'm getting more retreats than routs even when all things are equal, i.e. no forts. Also, Soviet airpower appears to be recovering, albeit slowly.

[ComradeP]

You can expect Rifle divisions to have a CV of about 3 or 4 by spring and around 4 or 5 by summer.

I'd suggest not building fortified zones, they'll fold when attacked. Save the AP's for assigning/reassigning leaders.

You could try not holding a line, but instead forming sort of a checkerboard hedgehog.

A=Axis, -=empty hex, S=Soviets

A-S
--S
A-S

or one with two hexes in between your stacks.

With two or three divisions in a hex with level 4 or 5 forts, the Soviets would have to concentrate more manpower to be able to force you out.

Keep in mind that a leader's wins/losses are based on battles, they're not cumulative for the wins/losses of the unit. So if you stack units and those are attacked, the result is one battle and 1 win/loss. If you spread two or three divisions out, they'll be attacked in two or three battles and as such your leader has a better chance of being sacked. Minimizing the amount of leaders being dismissed is important for maintaining the C&C you want.

[Davekhps]

Thanks P... I forgot to clarify, I'm not thinking of building the fortified regions to keep them, I'm building them to create a third line of forts.  Once that first line falls back, I'll disband the fortified regions and return the infantry & equipment to the pool.
 
The "line" I'm talking about (wish I could show you!) is identical to the checkerboard you mentioned, staggered one hex.  Then there is a row of empty hexes behind that line, then the second line has another checkerboard staggered one hex.  If I do the third line with the fortified regions, it too will be staggered one hex.
 
That said, I can see what you're saying about the potential value in staggering *two* hex checkerboards and doubling up.  I might do this in certain sectors (just don't have a whole heckuva lot of infantry to go around, the bane of the Axis).
 
Also, good point about leaders.  I haven't lost any good leaders so far, but a few have already been sacked here and there, and I'd hate to lose anyone like Manstein or Guderian over poorly-chosen tactical deployments.
 

[roflbinflood]

Well i just played through my first 2 turns of blizzard and my situation is hopeless.. and i prepared for it since mud started.  Its a goddamn nightmare..

Whatever you decide to do.. just dont put those romanians into any frontline position. My 4th romanian army has divisions with 30% of their TOE and that is after 2 blizzard turns while theyre just standing on a fortified line without ever seeing combat..[&:][&:]  Theyr having mass suicides there or something.. thats the only explanation i can think of. I also made the mistake of putting the 3rd romanian army to man a short line near Stalino and they got utterly crushed.. they lost 30k men in a few turns and now my lines have a massive gap and nothing to throw in it...[:@]

The only tip i can give you is to get every mountain division you have and put them on the line. They dont suffer any penalties and their stats will skyrocket during blizzards.

[PeeDeeAitch]

I would say that using the terrain helps - what terrain?  Well, that seems to be cities and the towns - a hedgehog here helps immensely, and a couple in supporting distance can make a sector of the lines far easier.  Look for these as mud approaches to try and stitch together a better defense.
 
Of course, to a noob like me the combat system is still kind of a mystery, and playing my "normal" game now in winter I am kind of feeling the strain...

[PeeDeeAitch]

At normal(!) I am facing the beginning of feb with huge losses, thin lines, a month more of snow...and a desire to pull back to the Dneiper to refit.  There is so much more to learn...

[CarnageINC]

Good advice, I've been bug hunting and not getting anywhere in my games.  I'm coming up to my first winter and I'm already shaking in my boots! [:D]

[karonagames]

Your first, First Winter is always going to be the toughest. I have given some advice, based on the 6 blizzards I experienced in testing, in Arstavidios' "First Try" AAR in the AAR section, and you can see how I used a "Linebacker" defence in the Field Marshal Noob AAR. Pieter's Hedgehog defence may also work, but we haven't seen a full blizzard season, to see what shape the Axis are in come April.

There may be some merit to the fortified zone "fall back line", but a couple of things to consider:

1. Location of the fall back line, if you build it too far forward it may not be strong enough - entrenchment building rates are reduced significantly during the blizzard.

2. The fortified zones will suck manpower from the replacement pools that your front line troops might need.

The winter mechanics were adjusted so that the GE infantry Divs, could retreat through the blizzard without routing, however they will be susceptible to routing when manpower strengths are in the 7-8k region, which is why I suggested the rotation tactic, to maintain front line strength above this threshold.

Having men manning a fortified line will reduce your ability to maintain the front line divisions.

As noted in other threads, the checks and balances within the game are a great feature, and as yet there is no "best" way to survive the First Winter, and I think as the game matures we will see many new strategies used.

[Davekhps]

So, I hit the blizzard last night.  Funny thing is, there are a few winter turns in there between the mud and the blizzard that I guess I never knew about.  When those winter turns hit I was expecting all hell to break loose, but instead I saw my units still strong and toasty in their entrenchments.  "Hey, this isn't so bad... what are people complaining about?"
 
Yeah, it isn't bad... until the freakin' blizzard.
 
Well, went through my first turn and my first line held everywhere against Soviet attacks, with one exception-- the strong forces trying to break south out of Leningrad.  I should be able to counter those off with panzers in reserve, and if I can actually contain that break, it should be a better situation for me come spring than it is now, given the Soviets will be out of all of their giant entrenchments ringing Leningrad. 
 
The AI continues to impress, BTW.  It defends well enough, but then come the blizzard turn, bam!  It attacks.  It's going to be a lonnng winter, I can tell.
 
Anyway, a couple of other things (bugs, quirks) I've observed that I'll post in another thread.

[karonagames]

Yes, you get 3 turns of "Snow" before 12 turns of "Blizzard", then 3 turns of snow. The 3 turns of snow in March allow you to regain territory lost in the blizzard, provided you are in reasonable shape at the end of the blizzard - easier said than done first time around.

[snowflake]

Wel, i'm not that far in the game but this is what roughly happened in 1941. Also because they paused in autumn (or was it the juli), then continued their offensive in the direction towards Moscow. Abd yup, the mud was a killer too.

During their first assault on Russia
--------------------------------------------------
The german Wehrmacht forgot/didn't-plan to supply winter clothing to the troops, hence they froze. Also tanks,cars and other vehicles did not tolerate the low temperatures of minus 40 degrees centigrade. That was with Moscow in their sights. After that they were overall by Russian tanks and infantry brigades on skies.

Basically error/negligence of the staff. So to fix this, try get supplies before winter and it starts to snow. I don't know if that is possible, but i wil look into this one, this is the key factor in taking Moscow, but not to brake the russing fighting spirit.

Any one already done this, please tel us.

[Zorch]

It's not that the winter clothing and lubricants were forgotten; there was just no way to get them in quantity to the front line troops. Other supplies had higher priorities. If Typhoon hadn't happened, maybe some of the Wehrmacht's limited supply capacity could have gone towards winterizing the combat units.

[randallw]

What i've read of the war is consistent with Zorch's statement; the supply situation for the Axis was awful, the front line troops could not get everything they needed, even if such things had been available to move forward.

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

You can expect Rifle divisions to have a CV of about 3 or 4 by spring and around 4 or 5 by summer.

I'd suggest not building fortified zones, they'll fold when attacked. Save the AP's for assigning/reassigning leaders.

You could try not holding a line, but instead forming sort of a checkerboard hedgehog.

A=Axis, -=empty hex, S=Soviets

A-S
--S
A-S

or one with two hexes in between your stacks.

With two or three divisions in a hex with level 4 or 5 forts, the Soviets would have to concentrate more manpower to be able to force you out.

Keep in mind that a leader's wins/losses are based on battles, they're not cumulative for the wins/losses of the unit. So if you stack units and those are attacked, the result is one battle and 1 win/loss. If you spread two or three divisions out, they'll be attacked in two or three battles and as such your leader has a better chance of being sacked. Minimizing the amount of leaders being dismissed is important for maintaining the C&C you want.

having my forces nearly surrounded around Moscow and pulling back fast, I'm going to try this, coupled with something else. During my firs GC, I tried to hold the line but ended up extremely weak everywhere, and had to commit my Panzer forces prematurely with disastrous results. The following strategy I'm working on is based on the premise that towns (dot in the hex type not urban hexes) provide some protection against the elements. Hope the devs could tell me if towns do offer some protection from the elements.

Towns tend to be numerous on the maps and could easily be woven into a system of double lines of defence (front and fallback positions). If each town had a garrison of 2 divisions (with anti tank attached to one of them in crucial areas), they could exert considerable ZOC in their vicinity, thus slowing any outflanking movements.. Frontal assaults will be costly for the Soviets in any case. Luftwaffe transport and fighter units will be placed in areas from which they can supply cut off forces.

Only up north is there a problem, since there are few towns and therefore troops have to be stationed in the open, using a kind of relay system to try to keep forces up to strength.

Panzer forces and Axis allies will be kept in urban hexes to minimise casualties and in anticipation of early '42 upgrades. Augmented mountain divisions (of which there are too few!) will either be used as improtant garrisons or as a 'mobile' firebrigade in threatned areas.

Essentially the whole point is to play for time,trading space for time if need be. Mind you, this strategy is based on the devs confirming that towns do provide a modicum of protection against the blizzard....

[hmatilai]

Playing as Soviets in my GC I was able to decimate whole German Army during blizzard. Whole front moved back from before Leningrad, Vyazma and Kiev to part of AGN encircled in Estonia, AGC in shambles and hardly able to put fight and AGS in a bit stronger position, but pushed back to Rovno-Tarnopol -line.

Now it's the first week of May 42 after mud season, and German army has recovered a lot of tank strength, about 800 afvs (1200 -> 2000+) and is trying to initiate attack through Pripet marshes. On first try it crashed headlong to my relocating Western Front, which also was going to attach through Pripet marshes as there used to be only weak Romanian screen for last half a year.

Manpower situation currently is 2,5 (up from 2M right after blizzard ) Million Germans facing 8M russians, so I think I'm going to go on the offensive already during summer against AGC...

[Arstavidios]

Well, in my campaign as the Axis I've just hit may.
I went through the blizzard on challenging. From what I understand this means the soviets were able to make many more attacks.
To sum up I stopped during the mud to dig in and build a line  of fortified zones. The soviet army just burst through my lines with many divisions freezing to death and losing many troops even without attacks.
 
Mountain divisions did quite well. Other units were just wiped out. Most of the losses have been disabled troops but recovery is slow.
right now I have about 2.9M German troops against about 7M soviets.
 
It looks like troops in cities resisted a bit better. But I'm not quite sure
Partisans start attacking about as the blizzard sets in, and this can cause some nasty surprises, so you have to thing about your rail network well before hand. Connectinfg the different lines is critical to avoid partisans cutting off some parts of ther front. level 4 is the max I saw so far. Only level 5 I've seen are forts in leningrad hexes.
 
Digging in takes some time. I messed around with reserve status and then wen into full retreat so I don't really know how it works. I will need several tries before I feel I can try pbem. Advice of other players will sure be welcome on this.
 
Basically after the first couple of turns the lines started to crumbe and I retreated everywhere except kharkov and leningrad. Settings did not help as it allowed additional soviet attacks. well dug in Rumanians resisted well at first but thet crumbled after a couple of turns. but the Germans suffered likewise.

[dwesolick]

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios

It looks like troops in cities resisted a bit better.
I messed around with reserve status and then wen into full retreat so I don't really know how it works. I will need several tries before I feel I can try pbem. Advice of other players will sure be welcome on this.

Cities and towns do offer protection from the elements, the bigger the city the more protection offered (at least that seems to be my experience). For now the reserve unit system does not work during blizzard turns. I based a lot of my defensive strategy on reserves and got lots of holes punched in my lines as a result (never once had a reserve unit committed, even though all requirements, MPs, supply, HQs were met or exceeded). Hopefully this will get fixed in a patch!

[karonagames]

For now the reserve unit system does not work during blizzard turns. I based a lot of my defensive strategy on reserves and got lots of holes punched in my lines as a result (never once had a reserve unit committed, even though all requirements, MPs, supply, HQs were met or exceeded).

How many turns of blizzard have you had with no reserve activations? The rules were changed to slightly reduce activations that would have high command penalties, but you should see a reserve activation every 3rd or 4th combat assuming there are 3-4 reserve units in range of the combat.

[dwesolick]

I went three full blizzard turns with zero reserve activations. All my reserve units were within 1 or two hexes of the front, rested and supplied and with proper HQ attachments. I finally gave up on the reserves and simply added them all to the front to prevent further breakthroughs. Support units were still activated as usual in many battles, but no reserves.
This was discussed in another forum and it seems others have experienced the same thing (one poster said he went 8 blizzard turns with no reserve activations). This is especially frustrating since the blizzard turns are really the only time that a German player will need defensive reserves. I also felt it added a nice bit of further realism to an already great game, so I do hope they get it working a bit better.

[mmarquo]

I am in August 1942 as the Axis in my training CG; I captured Kaluga, Kursk, Orel, Belgorod, Knarkov and and was outside Stalino; and had captured one Moscow hex; Leningrad was all but surrounded. During the 1st blizzard Soviet counterattack I was thrown back to the Dnepr giving up all of the above cities except for the Moscow hex and Kaluga. I did not even try to standfast - rather I retreated one/two hexes per turn and let the Soviets advance trying to use sacrifical lambs to screen and be in contact with the Soviets after the move. The problem is not so much combat as it is attrition from being in simple contact with Soviet units at the end of the move; this will cost you 100 k troops or more/turn if you are not careful.
 
"Units that begin their turn adjacent to enemy units during their logistics phase will suffer additional attrition losses representing low intensity combat, with approximately one-half to one percent of ground elements in a unit being destroyed (one-half of the manpower is killed and the other half is disabled). Combat attrition losses are dependent on unit morale, the number of ground elements of a certain type in a unit, and the experience level of each type of ground element. The higher unit morale and ground element experience level, the fewer combat attrition losses. This attrition is in addition to the additional fatigue effects from being adjacent to enemy units (9.4.1)"
 
So, if you have 2,000,000 men adjacent to Soviets at the end of a blizzard turn...well, you do the math...
 
 
Now the spring/summer Axis counter offensive has been devastating with 173 Soviet units eliminated; my approach is to avoid contact with the Soviets as much as possible in preparation for the thaw.
 
Marquo [:)]