Planet Outposts

[frugaldude]

Well here's my two cents.

I suggest colony ships have another function.  In addition to colonization they would be able to "deploy".  ALL planets would have the option to be colonized.  If it is currently colonizable, it would be colonized as normal.  If it is not colonizable then the colony ship sent there would have the status of "deployed".

Once "deployed" at a planet the colony ship will
   a)become a mining station under civilian control.
   b)retain the high colony ship maintenance fees.
   c)not be able to redeploy.  
   d)automatically colonize the planet and retire the ship/station when required colonization technology is acquired.
   e)will not allow colonization of the planet unless the ship/station is destroyed in battle or is scrapped.

In addition to their normal component requirements, all colony ships to should be required to have mining components, commercial center, and whatever other components needed to function as a mining station.  IMO requiring mining components on colony ships should be a requirement.  Do the colonists dig up resourses with hand tools?

The higher cost of colony ship maintenance would make one more selective of what planets to colonize and slow colonization spam.  The decision to deploy a colony ship would require careful deliberation considering the prolonged maintenance costs while waiting for the needed colonization tech.  I write this from the point of view of starting on harsh planets.

I would hope this could be implemented without disrupting the game play too much.  

If this could be implemented it would easily allow for the tools to add terraforming to the game.  That is another post.

[PaulP]

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Disagree. If you want a colony there then put one there. Otherwise it's not "your" planet. To me a mining station doesn't confer any control over the planet and the game design confirms that by allowing another empire to colonize the planet. You should not be able to lock down planets from colonization just by putting a mining base there. You do so by putting a colony there.

It's hardly locking down the planet. It would just prevent a lone, unarmed colony ship from coming along and destroying the mining station without any recourse or political consequences. In that case the colony ship is more effective than a fleet, since the mining station gets destroyed and you immediately claim the planet to boot - all without reputation hit, the need for war, or threat of consequences from the other party.

If you want the planet, send a military ship with the colony ship. Bam, same result as you get now with just a colony ship. Oh, you took a reputation hit for attacking your neighbor unprovoked and angered him? Well gee, you shouldn't have destroyed his mining station.

The result of both is the same - the planet is yours and the mining station is destroyed. The only difference is if you have to physically destroy the station first I actually have a chance to stop you and a claim against you for doing it.

[Zakhal]

If any neighbour tresspasses on my space I always thank him for colonizing and land my storm troopers on his new colony.

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

If any neighbour tresspasses on my space I always thank him for colonizing and land my storm troopers on his new colony.

That is the crux of this debate. Why should I get the reputation hit for an 'unprovoked' attack when that race destroyed my mining station and took my resources?

Not only did I lose the money put into the mining station, I lost all of the resources it had mined and he has disrupted my resource network as now I have to find a new source to replace the lost one. And what if I didn't want a colony there? Now I'm forced to invade to get it back, take a reputation hit and risk a war when the risk and rep hit should have gone to the enemy.

[Starfry]

Its Imperialism in space, may the Shakturi rot in the dark. The mining station is a civilian structure and only claims the material taken from the planet. If a foriegn government colonize and claims the planet, that mining station cannot take any more material from the planet and must shut down. Since the station is controlled by the private sector, the materials is dumped, probably near the settlement to annoy them, because nobody is going to pay for long term storage for a million tons of material.

In regard for the oilfield example, private sector ran around amok on unclaimed lands in the past until certain governments jumped in and demanded tax on the recently governement owned land the materials are harvested.

[Simulation01]

ORIGINAL: Starfry

Its Imperialism in space, may the Shakturi rot in the dark. The mining station is a civilian structure and only claims the material taken from the planet. If a foriegn government colonize and claims the planet, that mining station cannot take any more material from the planet and must shut down. Since the station is controlled by the private sector, the materials is dumped, probably near the settlement to annoy them, because nobody is going to pay for long term storage for a million tons of material.

In regard for the oilfield example, private sector ran around amok on unclaimed lands in the past until certain governments jumped in and demanded tax on the recently governement owned land the materials are harvested.

The mining station is built by the state sector. Also, one cannot simply mine from space. There has to be infrastructure on the planet which mines the material and sends it to the station. So, the state that has a mining structure there has ppl or sovereign equipment on that planet, which represents a claim there.

If you want the planet then you should be compelled to take it by force....I am not in the business of surrendering planets and the mechanics of the game should not force that cowardly notion upon me.

[forsaken1111]

At the very least we should be able to arm our mining stations and tell them to fire on incoming colony ships automatically.

[Aures]

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111
At the very least we should be able to arm our mining stations and tell them to fire on incoming colony ships automatically.

That and/or maybe the don't allow colonization on planets with mining stations thing combined with some system of taking ships/bases with troops (or an entirely new category of toops called marines or something that might have different mechanics).

[feygan]

After reading most of this with some interest something has become evidently clear, many of the arguments being put forward are using our own real world as an example, this will always fall face down since there are so many factors in the real world that you couldn't hope to emulate in the game, which does render comparing oil fields on earth with flags to giant gas planets 350 light years away a mute point.

However in the end it all does fall down to force, put as many civillian flags and oil fields down as you want, if you aren't sending the navy in when they get taken over by some hostile invasion then you will always loose them. This has happened numerous times in the past here on earth, and always it wasn't the civilians with their "but we own this land" cry that solved the issue, it always came down to guns.

I'm in the UK so a prime recent example would be the Falklands war, here you have a tiny island, with a big village worth of English population who are the subject of a hostile takeover, now had the UK not sent the navy there to start a war then the island would now be back as part of Argentina, not because someone came and took it but more importantly because someone "didn't" defend it. At the end of the day miners/villagers/rabbits&frogs do not defend anything thats why we have navies. So to have a simple (even if giant planet wide) mining station lay a claim seems somewhat odd, if you want to keep your resources then you have to show that they are yours and shout out "from my cold dead hands" whilst aiming a proton beam.

Some may cry that this then becaomes unfair because your take a rep hit, well again to use earth and the UK. England once held territory in every single part of the globe, we controlled most of the earths resources and so on. Why? because simply if anyone didn't like it we went to war with them and swiftly wiped them out, however this also meant that we don't now have a nice fluffy history of the entire world loving us as a nation because of our past.

So yes an opposing colony ship landing on the planet may seem annoying that they stole your shiny resource, but then did they really steal it, or did you just not defend it? PErsonally I think the game mechanics function well enough already without it becoming hugely complex and then encounter horrid balance issues. All I would like to see is perhaps an option on ships/stations to attack anything that comes near of X class vessel, so when I have a large empire I don't have to micromanage the destruction of rogue colony ships.

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: feygan

However in the end it all does fall down to force, put as many civillian flags and oil fields down as you want, if you aren't sending the navy in when they get taken over by some hostile invasion then you will always loose them. This has happened numerous times in the past here on earth, and always it wasn't the civilians with their "but we own this land" cry that solved the issue, it always came down to guns.

Nobody is arguing this. The issue, at least as I see it, is that the game allows no other option to denying the enemy a planet. You either have to put your own colony there, which is sometimes impossible and sometimes undesirable, or you have to murder civilians in a colony ship and take a reputation hit, or you choose to let them destroy your mining base and take your resources. There should be a choice OTHER than murder or theft in the cases you are unable or unwilling to plant a colony.

Also, its 'moot point' not mute.

[Shark7]

It also depends somewhat on the populace in Real World terms. There are places where the villagers will try to fight you off with pitchforks, and other places that will passively let you take over.

Tons of factors that can not be modeled in a game. Which is why I suggested Colonial Garrisons to 'claim' territory...even so, that 'claim' can be removed militarily.

[Simulation01]

ORIGINAL: feygan

After reading most of this with some interest something has become evidently clear, many of the arguments being put forward are using our own real world as an example, this will always fall face down since there are so many factors in the real world that you couldn't hope to emulate in the game, which does render comparing oil fields on earth with flags to giant gas planets 350 light years away a mute point.

However in the end it all does fall down to force, put as many civillian flags and oil fields down as you want, if you aren't sending the navy in when they get taken over by some hostile invasion then you will always loose them. This has happened numerous times in the past here on earth, and always it wasn't the civilians with their "but we own this land" cry that solved the issue, it always came down to guns.

I'm in the UK so a prime recent example would be the Falklands war, here you have a tiny island, with a big village worth of English population who are the subject of a hostile takeover, now had the UK not sent the navy there to start a war then the island would now be back as part of Argentina, not because someone came and took it but more importantly because someone "didn't" defend it. At the end of the day miners/villagers/rabbits&frogs do not defend anything thats why we have navies. So to have a simple (even if giant planet wide) mining station lay a claim seems somewhat odd, if you want to keep your resources then you have to show that they are yours and shout out "from my cold dead hands" whilst aiming a proton beam.

Some may cry that this then becaomes unfair because your take a rep hit, well again to use earth and the UK. England once held territory in every single part of the globe, we controlled most of the earths resources and so on. Why? because simply if anyone didn't like it we went to war with them and swiftly wiped them out, however this also meant that we don't now have a nice fluffy history of the entire world loving us as a nation because of our past.

So yes an opposing colony ship landing on the planet may seem annoying that they stole your shiny resource, but then did they really steal it, or did you just not defend it? PErsonally I think the game mechanics function well enough already without it becoming hugely complex and then encounter horrid balance issues. All I would like to see is perhaps an option on ships/stations to attack anything that comes near of X class vessel, so when I have a large empire I don't have to micromanage the destruction of rogue colony ships.

Interesting that you object to so many other views because they are utilizing 'real' world examples, yet you yourself use 'real' world examples as a counter point?! What else is this if not a 4x space empire strategy sim? It draws upon our global history in it's very creation.

How can one civilian ship then take over/out another civilian/unarmed state station?

The Falklands were invaded by the Argentine military...not an Argentine colony ship.

Also, the game is already complex....have you looked at the trading resources yet....or the resource requirements for building a major warship?

[nadia911]

No Simulation01

The Faklands (Malvinas) were invaded by the british colony ship in 1833

Later the Argentine military attempt to expel the invader...

[Simulation01]

ORIGINAL: nadia911

No Simulation01

The Faklands (Malvinas) were invaded by the british colony ship in 1833

Later the Argentine military attempt to expel the invader...

LOL The last Argentine attempt to assert it's sovereignty there failed. This thread, however is not about the legitimacy of UK rule over the Falklands, but over an issue in which I am personally vested.... preventing a colony ship from taking over planets which I have mining stations at.[8D]

[Lord_Astraios]

I think having a mining station shouldn't impede colonization,  since first of all is a state structure and uses civilians to run it.   As for me,  ever since pirates start bothering me,  i have redesigned the stations with weapons,  so is a standard,  but here is an idea , if the planet gets colonized,  the mining station would be there but with a problem,  would cease to operate,  with expenses,  but also an event could pop up saying Station 00010 is getting boarded or degrading,  of course you just could destroy it.

Also with the planet situation,  I do like that,  the colonial garrison thing,  could get some resupply but not as effective as a star base,  build a fort that haves its own army.   YOu could have 3 types,  simple,  moderate,  and the most expensive fort yet,  the simple can be like you can bombard it from space still it will attack you,  moderate could be difficult to handle but still you can bombard it from space and to speed it up send troops,  and the expensive one,  hard to get,  10% chance of bombarding it from space,  but you need to send troops to attack it since the base is underground.

[Lord_Astraios]

Oh,  i forgot,  territory issue,  im fine with the DW map feature,  but here is an idea,  could be added as a option so you can select it,  and this reminds me of STARS!  the game  old but still have it in my machine,  even so the game was plain dots and you only see the scanners range,  graphical challenged,  but difficult to pinpoint each different empire,  but with a mod made for the game,  you could generate a map that shows you each empire,  the dot as the planet,  then the sphere with a color for each power,  if i can get my CD's i will show you a picture for an example.

But my idea is that,  each empire has a sphere of power,  and influence,  lets say,  planet Omicron,  colonize it, (Im using the pixel method as in distance from the planet and out,  not accurate but an example so you visualize how it could go) it gets a small sphere from 20 pixels to 40 according to the growth without a military ship present,  but with a military present on a colonized planet,  it could start same as the planet from 20 pixels or whatever size the sphere is,  one ship could add a pixel,  then two 4 more pixels,  and if you have a fleet of 9 ships,  the sphere could reach to 60 pixels and the game has a maximum of 80 to 100 pixels.

But if theres another power nearby and the sphere hits yours,  many examples can be made,  lines for example red and blue crossing in the sphere could be seen indicating a mix of power,  or dots instead of lines,  or like in the game i mentioned,  if i remember,  the sphere tends to consume my enemy until i had a huge presence around it only the dot could be seen identifying the enemy when it lost everything and i just got no time to invade it and having the planet for myself.

[feygan]

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

LOL The last Argentine attempt to assert it's sovereignty there failed. This thread, however is not about the legitimacy of UK rule over the Falklands, but over an issue in which I am personally vested.... preventing a colony ship from taking over planets which I have mining stations at.[8D]

Except how does a simple mining operation that sees a freighter once a month perhaps, suddenly become able to prevent a colony ship from landing and setting up a colony? Just because someone plants a gold mine on a continent will not prevent me in any way from building a fully supplied colony on a different colony and thereby building a full marketplace and bringing in corporations to undercut the prices of the mining operation making it unprofitable for them to continue (granted this is an RP way of one possibilty how a colony can cause a mining station to become redundant and vanish). To flip this around though if I had the mining station and someone did the same to me then it's just business, hostile takeover business yes but still just business. If I really want to keep it then I have to remove the problem in the only game mechanic left which becomes violence.

I always play the game in a similar mindset that mining stations are just that, perhaps a few bars and such just to keep the workers happy but when 5-10M people land down and start offering better services and better prices your workers will spend their hard earned credits in town instead.

Outpost garrisons have the potential to work except from an RP standpoint they are abit of an exploit, you are still turning colonist away at the point of a gun except now your not getting any kind of rep hit for using violence against civillians. At least by firing on the ships in orbit you get an effect for being abit of a galactic bully. I can't think of any viable reason why any civ can just claim a bunch of systems just because they happen to have colonies that surround them by a few light years.

The other issue I have with outposts is that the issues of mining stations laying claim means there is never any hurry to bother researching planet type techs, just plonk down a nice cheap station on every resource rich or ruins planet you see and then go turtle while you get a colony on them which I doubt the ai could handle as a tactic to play against. Expensive costing garrisons I can't see unless they don't prevent a colony ship from being sent and instead deflect it away as if it were already colonized along with giving a rep hit with the colony ship race, they would be afterall just soldiers waving guns at colonists telling them to get back on the ship or become space toast. In which case where is the difference from what you can already do as in just open fire with an orbiting military craft, they don't need to destroy the colony ship just fire off a few warning shots with a "this planet is claimed in the name of xxxx, begone" message. All we need for that is a simple addition strategy order to open fire on xxx ship class but not to pursure.

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: feygan

Just because someone plants a gold mine on a continent will not prevent me in any way from building a fully supplied colony on a different colony and thereby building a full marketplace and bringing in corporations to undercut the prices of the mining operation making it unprofitable for them to continue (granted this is an RP way of one possibilty how a colony can cause a mining station to become redundant and vanish). To flip this around though if I had the mining station and someone did the same to me then it's just business, hostile takeover business yes but still just business. If I really want to keep it then I have to remove the problem in the only game mechanic left which becomes violence.

Except this isn't what is happening. What happens in the game is that I spend money to establish a mining outpost and then you show up with a colony ship, land, and suddenly the mining outpost vanishes into thin air along with everything it's mined. In real life there would be, at minimum, a diplomatic incident with you 'muscling out' the gold mine.

If that gold mine belonged to a country and you decided to build a city there and force the mine workers to leave, don't you think the mine's owner would be upset with you? And should he be punished (reputation hit) if he decides to back up his claim with military force?

[feygan]

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

ORIGINAL: feygan

Just because someone plants a gold mine on a continent will not prevent me in any way from building a fully supplied colony on a different colony and thereby building a full marketplace and bringing in corporations to undercut the prices of the mining operation making it unprofitable for them to continue (granted this is an RP way of one possibilty how a colony can cause a mining station to become redundant and vanish). To flip this around though if I had the mining station and someone did the same to me then it's just business, hostile takeover business yes but still just business. If I really want to keep it then I have to remove the problem in the only game mechanic left which becomes violence.

Except this isn't what is happening. What happens in the game is that I spend money to establish a mining outpost and then you show up with a colony ship, land, and suddenly the mining outpost vanishes into thin air along with everything it's mined. In real life there would be, at minimum, a diplomatic incident with you 'muscling out' the gold mine.

If that gold mine belonged to a country and you decided to build a city there and force the mine workers to leave, don't you think the mine's owner would be upset with you? And should he be punished (reputation hit) if he decides to back up his claim with military force?

I can agree entirely that it is odd how you can take land with no consequence, but then surely rather than go to all the effort of having extra outposts that become unbalancing without heavy amounts of work to fine tune both the ai and the maintenence for them. Would it not be easier to just add in a slight rep hit for landing a colony ship on an already mined planet for when the ai does it to each other, and when you do it to any of the ai. Then when the ai does the same to you, you just get a popup message the same way as if you have had a ship attacked and leave it upto the player to decide how they will respond?

I'm not quite sure how the ai currently works out if taking a rep hit action is worthwhile or not, but if it can already make choices on if to send spies that could provoke a war or not, then it shouldn't take too much to give it a new choice on to take land or not. Physically there is nothing to stop a colony ship setting up shop on an already mined planet and outdo the mining station to abandonment, all thats missing is some consequence for the actions. Also if that were possible then it would be nice to have an additional strategy where a patrolling military vessel can detect (with scanners) an incoming colony vessel (they already do this with invasion fleets so shouldn't be too hard to add one more) and open fire when it gets too close but not to pursue, while this would get a rep hit I feel as it should do as muscling in on someones resources with business might not be very nice it's not as bad as endangering civillians. This would accomplish the whole territory claim aspect by having a fully working military presence there, and meaning if you do leave gaps then the ai can still make a play for the land but there are consequences for doing so.

[forsaken1111]

A slight rep hit is actually one of the proposals I've put forth on the issue, along with an empire policy to make armed mining stations shoot at incoming colony ships.