No Fortress Sevastopol

[kirkgregerson]

I understand how fort level works. But, I'm going to lobby for a special new terrain of fortress. During WWII it is arguable that Sevastopol was the toughest fortress in the world at that time. It's history of being a fortress goes way back on the timeline. So when in my game against the AI I brushed aside the defenders and took the prize city with little difficultly. When in reality this was a tough nut to crack. Manstein tried, although w/less than adequate resources, and failed in late 41.Even when Manstein's 11th Army (plus some Romania units) finally too it in June 42, the loses were high and it was not an easy operation.

So I'd like to lobby for some fortress terrain, that starts in Leningrad. With the possibility for the Sov player to make a few other key cities fortresses as well: Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad. But with some cost to resources and men, ??, and time.

[Klydon]

I would agree on Sevastopol, but not on Moscow or Stalingrad for sure. Leningrad, a case could be made, but not nearly like Sevastopol. 

[kirkgregerson]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I would agree on Sevastopol, but not on Moscow or Stalingrad for sure. Leningrad, a case could be made, but not nearly like Sevastopol. 

Well, there would be some *cost* to make these other locations fortress, they don't start as fortresses. Maybe just Moscow and Leningrad since they were fortified heavily as the Sov were expecting attacks on both. Stalingrad was made into a fortress more from the German bombing than anything else the Sov did.

[MengJiao]

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

I understand how fort level works. But, I'm going to lobby for a special new terrain of fortress. During WWII it is arguable that Sevastopol was the toughest fortress in the world at that time. It's history of being a fortress goes way back on the timeline. So when in my game against the AI I brushed aside the defenders and took the prize city with little difficultly. When in reality this was a tough nut to crack. Manstein tried, although w/less than adequate resources, and failed in late 41.Even when Manstein's 11th Army (plus some Romania units) finally too it in June 42, the loses were high and it was not an easy operation.

So I'd like to lobby for some fortress terrain, that starts in Leningrad. With the possibility for the Sov player to make a few other key cities fortresses as well: Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad. But with some cost to resources and men, ??, and time.

Well, I fixed that. In my April 1942 version of the 1942-1945 campaign, Sevastapol is fortified to Level 4. I noticed that in the 1942 base campaign Leningrad is also a level 4 and I might have seen a level 5 on the Baltic Coast. I'm pretty sure that formations with sappers attached can increase the fortification level over time.

[kirkgregerson]

Well I don't think that a fort level 5 equates to what Leningrad was like as a fortress in 41-42.   But I could be wrong. 

[Davekhps]

I hope that new players realize that all it takes is units and time to make fortresses that size. (Nigh impregnable fortress, at that-- all those folks lobbying for Level 4-5 fortresses should appreciate just how hard it is to take those down).

Seriously- play the GC or Road to Leningrad and watch how high the Soviets fortify the areas around the city and the Volkhov Front in only a handful of turns just by deploying three-unit stacks (not to mention the urban population bonus for digging in near cities). It's quite significant.

[MarcA]

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

I understand how fort level works. But, I'm going to lobby for a special new terrain of fortress. During WWII it is arguable that Sevastopol was the toughest fortress in the world at that time. It's history of being a fortress goes way back on the timeline. So when in my game against the AI I brushed aside the defenders and took the prize city with little difficultly. When in reality this was a tough nut to crack. Manstein tried, although w/less than adequate resources, and failed in late 41.Even when Manstein's 11th Army (plus some Romania units) finally too it in June 42, the loses were high and it was not an easy operation.

So I'd like to lobby for some fortress terrain, that starts in Leningrad. With the possibility for the Sov player to make a few other key cities fortresses as well: Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad. But with some cost to resources and men, ??, and time.

One of the reasons it took the Germans so long to crack Sevastopol was because the Soviets counter attacked across the Kerch straights with 2 armies in Dec '41. Manstein had to turn aside to destroy this threat. This bought time for the Coastal Army at Sevastopol to build up.

After dealing with the threat from Kerch, Manstein then went on to destroy the Coastal army defending Sevatopol in about 3 or 4 weeks. If the landings at Kerch had never happened it is likely Manstein would have taken Sevastopol in '41 relatively quickly.

When you took Sevastopol did you have to fight off two armies at Kerch simultaneously?

My point is, if there was no Soviet counter attack and you attacked Sevastopol with stronger forces than 11th army had at its disposal and took Sevastopol in 2 or 3 turns then what you are seeing is probably not too unrealistic.

[notenome]

Though the Kerch landings did help the defense of Sevastopol quite a bit, the toughness of that defense didnt come from whatever digging the defendes did. It came from a combination of defensive terrain (like the charge of the light brigade earlier), huge coastal guns (which proved quite effective at disrupting the Germans) and several fortresses (Maxim Gorky and all). Plus there were large facilities underground which allowed the Soviets to repair there strongpoints if the Germans didn't manage to take them in one assault. And the sea allowed for resupply and evacuation. Its just a nightmare of a place to assault, and would be with or without the Kerch landings (though again, they did severely disrupt Mansteins offensive timetable.

[Terminus]

Let's not overestimate the Kerch landings. 11th Army had already run out of time to take Sevastopol in 1941 before they happened.

And The Charge of the Light Brigade is a myth.

[Wikingus]

ORIGINAL: Davekhps

I hope that new players realize that all it takes is units and time to make fortresses that size. (Nigh impregnable fortress, at that-- all those folks lobbying for Level 4-5 fortresses should appreciate just how hard it is to take those down).

Seriously- play the GC or Road to Leningrad and watch how high the Soviets fortify the areas around the city and the Volkhov Front in only a handful of turns just by deploying three-unit stacks (not to mention the urban population bonus for digging in near cities). It's quite significant.

Just experiencing that in my current PBEM. Turn 3 and my opponent already has a solid defence line full of level 2 forts. A very tough nut to crack for fatigued panzer divisions. Did the Soviets do that historically though? I'm not an expert on Barbarossa so I couldn't say, but it does seem a bit odd that by early July 1941 virtually every Soviet unit would be in a decently solid fortification.

[bdtj1815]

I think I agree that certain locations should have a defensive value above the level that any units can "dig in". Sevastopol is the most obvious example as it was a fortified city developed over many decades. Other locations are more difficult to identify although Kronstadt might qualify. The problem might be with certain cities that held out in extraordinary circumstances. Stalingrad might top the list but playing the 1941 scenarios I have found Brest-Litovsk falls very easily whilst in game terms its garrison actually held out until turn 3/4 although the small part of the city still held could be argued to not influence activity in surrounding hexes.

Difficult one to judge.

[Erik Rutins]

Guys, have you looked at Sevastopol's starting fortification level?

[Sheytan]

Agreed, it took a indivudual of Mansteins stature and a heavy investment of purpose built siege artillery not seen in this sort of concentration except against some specific targets in the French campaign to break the defenses, even then it was a bloodbath and earned a dedicated service badge for those that fought there on the german side.

Bravo, I second your desire.

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

I understand how fort level works. But, I'm going to lobby for a special new terrain of fortress. During WWII it is arguable that Sevastopol was the toughest fortress in the world at that time. It's history of being a fortress goes way back on the timeline. So when in my game against the AI I brushed aside the defenders and took the prize city with little difficultly. When in reality this was a tough nut to crack. Manstein tried, although w/less than adequate resources, and failed in late 41.Even when Manstein's 11th Army (plus some Romania units) finally too it in June 42, the loses were high and it was not an easy operation.

So I'd like to lobby for some fortress terrain, that starts in Leningrad. With the possibility for the Sov player to make a few other key cities fortresses as well: Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad. But with some cost to resources and men, ??, and time.

[Sheytan]

Stalingrad was not a fortified city. Sevastopol was a fortified city and AFAIK it was not captured in the Crimean war either. Correct me if I am wrong.

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815

I think I agree that certain locations should have a defensive value above the level that any units can "dig in". Sevastopol is the most obvious example as it was a fortified city developed over many decades. Other locations are more difficult to identify although Kronstadt might qualify. The problem might be with certain cities that held out in extraordinary circumstances. Stalingrad might top the list but playing the 1941 scenarios I have found Brest-Litovsk falls very easily whilst in game terms its garrison actually held out until turn 3/4 although the small part of the city still held could be argued to not influence activity in surrounding hexes.

Difficult one to judge.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Stalingrad was not a fortified city. Sevastopol was a fortified city and AFAIK it was not captured in the Crimean war either. Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, you're wrong, Sevastopol fell on 9th Sept. 1855, but should have been taken the previous year, but for the prevarication of the Allied Commanders. [:)]

[roflbinflood]

I think the current forts make them allready darn hard to dislodge.. i havent been able to take leningrad because of the enemy having lvl4 forts on every *#¤ hex there.. and even if you do succeed your losses are huge. The russians allready seem to dig in way too fast.. in a few weeks theyll have lvl 2-3 forts all over the front.

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: jhak

I think the current forts make them allready darn hard to dislodge.. i havent been able to take leningrad because of the enemy having lvl4 forts on every *#¤ hex there.. and even if you do succeed your losses are huge. The russians allready seem to dig in way too fast.. in a few weeks theyll have lvl 2-3 forts all over the front.

One must apply a lot of pioneer and hvy artillery units to succeed in Leningrad and frankly I don't think one has suffiecient time to conquer Leningrad before the onset of winter.

[dwesolick]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

ORIGINAL: jhak

I think the current forts make them allready darn hard to dislodge.. i havent been able to take leningrad because of the enemy having lvl4 forts on every *#¤ hex there.. and even if you do succeed your losses are huge. The russians allready seem to dig in way too fast.. in a few weeks theyll have lvl 2-3 forts all over the front.

One must apply a lot of pioneer and hvy artillery units to succeed in Leningrad and frankly I don't think one has suffiecient time to conquer Leningrad before the onset of winter.

Agreed. I'm in early Oct 41 and, due to Soviet strength and defenses, have no prayer of taking Leningrad by storm. My only hope is to thrust more to the east and capture the ports on Lake Ladoga. Hopefully that will seal off the city and make a direct assault feasible. Still going to be rough going with the terrain (rivers, forest, swamp everywhere) and the coming mud/snow.
Haven't quite reached Sevastopol yet, but I can already see the Soviets digging in at the narrow entrance to the Crimea. Just getting to Sevastopol should be a chore! No doubt, this is the best AI I've ever gone up against.

[Sheytan]

Thanks much for the correction.

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
Stalingrad was not a fortified city. Sevastopol was a fortified city and AFAIK it was not captured in the Crimean war either. Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, you're wrong, Sevastopol fell on 9th Sept. 1855, but should have been taken the previous year, but for the prevarication of the Allied Commanders. [:)]