Totenkopf SS Division

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

French publisher Histoire & collections have recently brought out 'SS Totenkopf France 1940'.

Though O/T for this game, the author of that book is also responsible for the brilliant English language Panzers in Normandy Then and Now

A great book for WitE's West Front game when it comes out [;)]

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

French publisher Histoire & collections have recently brought out 'SS Totenkopf France 1940'.

Though O/T for this game, the author of that book is also responsible for the brilliant English language Panzers in Normandy Then and Now

A great book for WitE's West Front game when it comes out [;)]

I remember when I first bought that book years ago and thinking it was the best book on the subject, but I have to say if you want information on the Panzer Divisions from 1943-45 then there is only one book to have in your library:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fire-Brigades-P ... 211&sr=8-1

Whilst I wait with eager anticipation for WitE's West Front game(no pressure honestly) it's the joining of the 2 together that I really look forward too. And no, I don't care if it takes a month to do a single turn either, I plan on living a long, long time.

[turska]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

Initially you had to volunteer for the Waffen-SS as well as to be "aryan". And you had to be tall (different height requirements for different units) and you had to be "model aryan" for the LAH: no filled teeth etc. As the war went on these restrictions got looser and from -43 men were also conscripted unvoluntary into Waffen-SS as there werent enough volunteers to cover up the losses.

[randallw]

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

Most likely from prisons and mental institutions[:D]Seriously though it is interesting an American from Kentucky I beleive joined the Waffen SS before the war and fought on the Eastern front,in fact several Americans volunteerd for service in German armed forces.Goddamed traitors.

I'm guessing they may have been German lineage.

[vinnie71]

The SS from '43 onwards also took the cream of recruits from the Reich, especially since Himmler also became leader fo the Reserve army which was the recruitment body of the armed forces. In essence they took first priority, which is also why the SS continued to expand it formations and fill their ranks, while the Heer's OOB stayed stable and then shrank with losses.
 
As a side note, the death's head emblem is an old one in German armies. Remember the Death's Head Hussars of Prussia? I'm not aware of an original unit that created it but once I read somewhere that it may have been the emblem of the Forlorn Hope units of swordsmen in late medieval times. In essence the death's head of the SS division was both an attempt to distinguish this particular unit but also the continuation of an ancient tradition.

[Iron Duke]

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

None of this matters they were scumbags and lowlife pure and simple and if I was back there and captured anyone of them I would execute them on the spot

Isn't that what made them 'scumbags and lowlifes' ,executing POW's out of hand is wrong , were better than them and should act like it.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: dwesolick

ORIGINAL: Puhis

All that reminds me of this Mitchell & Webb sketch. They are SS soldiers wondering "why skulls???"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y

That is a hilarious video! This one is pretty good too...Heil Doenitz!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHnyQXyuTGY&feature=related

That is a hilarious video! This one is pretty good too...Heil Doenitz

I laughed out loud.. hehehe

[raizer]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

French publisher Histoire & collections have recently brought out 'SS Totenkopf France 1940'.

Though O/T for this game, the author of that book is also responsible for the brilliant English language Panzers in Normandy Then and Now

A great book for WitE's West Front game when it comes out [;)]

I have that and his other book-blitzkrieg in the west-80.00 bucks but worth every penny (7 pounds heavy and 700 pages of glossy photos of combat then and then the author retraces all the photos and takes current ones-I really love all the Meuse river crossing photos) I highly recommend these "Then and Now books" http://www.amazon.com/Blitzkrieg-West-T ... 0900913681

[Theng]

None of this matters they were scumbags and lowlife pure and simple and if I was back there and captured anyone of them I would execute them on the spot

Which would be a war crime. What you do to others says a lot more about you than about the person you do it to. No matter what these people did, and many if not most did despicable things, does not deprive them of due process. You are putting yourself on the same level as these people if you are as flagrantly disregarding the rule of law and decency as they have done.

[Theng]

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

Members of the Totenkopf division were generally speaking volunteers from the concentration and death camps. There was fluid exchange of troops between those them for "reconvalescence." This practice is and was the most damning contradiction for Waffen-SS apologists who proclaim a "clean shield" for the Waffen-SS and that the Waffen-SS was just another arm of the armed force of Nazi-Germany.

Later on the in war (42/43 onwards), the Waffen-SS generally continued to recruit from volunteers in Germany, who preempted their draft notice to the Wehrmacht. In much larger numbers, the Waffen-SS recruited Germans who lived had lived in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Rumania, and to a lesser degree the Soviet Union (remember there were tens of millions ethnically German, German-speaking people living in those countries, before and after WW2) that could not be legally drafted by the Wehrmacht, but could be recruited by the Waffen-SS. The non-German recruitment of the Waffen-SS was comparably tiny compared to the ethnically German draft/recruitment. Towards the end of the war (late 44 and 45), many Germans were simply drafted into the Waffen-SS as well.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Xian

None of this matters they were scumbags and lowlife pure and simple and if I was back there and captured anyone of them I would execute them on the spot

Which would be a war crime. What you do to others says a lot more about you than about the person you do it to. No matter what these people did, and many if not most did despicable things, does not deprive them of due process. You are putting yourself on the same level as these people if you are as flagrantly disregarding the rule of law and decency as they have done.

Normality never existed in the Eastern Front. Hitler clearly said it: the war in Russia would be an EXTERMINATION war. So Russians knew what to expect (slavs -Russians, Poles,etc.- would be the slaves of the Reich). That's why in the western front the Germans could seem -with some exceptions- 'gentlemen' [;)]

If I remember correctly, when the Soviets captured black uniforms they were shot on sight [:D]

[hgilmer3]

Most likely from prisons and mental institutionsSeriously though it is interesting an American from Kentucky I beleive joined the Waffen SS before the war and fought on the Eastern front,in fact several Americans volunteerd for service in German armed forces.Goddamed traitors.

This is referenced in one of the episodes of Band of Brothers. In the 2nd or 3rd episode, one of the Americans does a mimic of holding a microphone to a German and says, "And where are you from soldier?" And in perfect English the guy replies, "Eugene Oregon".

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: randallw

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

Most likely from prisons and mental institutions[:D]Seriously though it is interesting an American from Kentucky I beleive joined the Waffen SS before the war and fought on the Eastern front,in fact several Americans volunteerd for service in German armed forces.Goddamed traitors.

I'm guessing they may have been German lineage.

You're right on that one, the eight I mentioned in an earlier post all had surnames of German origin. and don't forget alot of German families that emmigrated to American after WWI and in the 20's went back to Germany after Hitler came to power because the economy had been improved and Hitler was restoring Germany's National pride and influence once again. I dare say a lot of those families had very young children born in the US, but who in effect, were brought up as Germans.

[janh]

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

The initial cadres were in fact made up from guards units of camps and prisons, which in turn were ideologically selected. Don't remember exactly what criteria they put, but you can imagine that it was nuts. But I recall some British War historian writing that similar to the other frontline divisions of Waffen-SS, things changed after the winter of 1941. Most of the original cadres of the divisions had vanished by then, thanks to the heavy winter battles, and by 1942 these divisions were being filled up by army regular recruits and volunteers. Also (operational) control shifted to Wehrmacht, and the units were left only formal linkage to Himmler and his SS institution by name. The ideological background with the cadres was diminishing, but not so was the high-expectations into the performance of those units, which got instilled into the men. As much as for instance this happened with the not-SS, Wehrmacht elite division Großdeutschland. Obviously war-criminals remained in the Waffen-SS ranks, or perhaps such "extremists" also gathered there as volunteers. But they did so also in other (regular) Wehrmacht formations -- atrocities were committed not solely by Waffen-SS (or solely by Germans).

After the war, there was a big trial in Germany to recognize frontline Waffen-SS formations as regular Wehrmacht combat units (in contrast to the regular/"Camp-" SS), because that guaranteed the soldiers war pensions. They won this legal battle, and it was recognized that there was a distinction between people drafted into Waffen-SS in later war, and the murderer organization of Himmler. But in German public this is little recognized, and --understandably-- just invoking the term "SS" prevents any rational discussion about this. Suppose only war historians and judges make a clearer distinction there.

[Titanwarrior89]

Interesting...

ORIGINAL: janh

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

The initial cadres were in fact made up from guards units of camps and prisons, which in turn were ideologically selected. Don't remember exactly what criteria they put, but you can imagine that it was nuts. But I recall some British War historian writing that similar to the other frontline divisions of Waffen-SS, things changed after the winter of 1941. Most of the original cadres of the divisions had vanished by then, thanks to the heavy winter battles, and by 1942 these divisions were being filled up by army regular recruits and volunteers. Also (operational) control shifted to Wehrmacht, and the units were left only formal linkage to Himmler and his SS institution by name. The ideological background with the cadres was diminishing, but not so was the high-expectations into the performance of those units, which got instilled into the men. As much as for instance this happened with the not-SS, Wehrmacht elite division Großdeutschland. Obviously war-criminals remained in the Waffen-SS ranks, or perhaps such "extremists" also gathered there as volunteers. But they did so also in other (regular) Wehrmacht formations -- atrocities were committed not solely by Waffen-SS (or solely by Germans).

After the war, there was a big trial in Germany to recognize frontline Waffen-SS formations as regular Wehrmacht combat units (in contrast to the regular/"Camp-" SS), because that guaranteed the soldiers war pensions. They won this legal battle, and it was recognized that there was a distinction between people drafted into Waffen-SS in later war, and the murderer organization of Himmler. But in German public this is little recognized, and --understandably-- just invoking the term "SS" prevents any rational discussion about this. Suppose only war historians and judges make a clearer distinction there.

[Theng]

Normality never existed in the Eastern Front. Hitler clearly said it: the war in Russia would be an EXTERMINATION war. So Russians knew what to expect (slavs -Russians, Poles,etc.- would be the slaves of the Reich). That's why in the western front the Germans could seem -with some exceptions- 'gentlemen'

If I remember correctly, when the Soviets captured black uniforms they were shot on sight

And there is the Kommissar Order and other extermination orders that required all troops to either kill Soviet Kommissars upon capture and for the Wehrmacht to assist in the extermination and wholesale killing of Jews. The adherence to these orders were mixed throughout the German forces on the East Front. Many followed them, some delayed, some even refused to follow the orders. The very interesting thing is that nobody who refused to follow these orders were every court martialed or had other adverse consequences as documented by the Wehrmacht Exhibitions in Germany over the last 10 years, where many apologists and revisionists tried to keep the honor of the Wehrmacht clean.

Both sides were not "nice to each other". The treatment of Soviet POWs in German capitivity was despicable and the treatment of German POWs by the Soviets was not better. Of the 300,000 German solidiers that were captured by the Soviets in Stalingrad, 5,000 came back after the war. The rest "died."

All sides in World War Two, Germans, Soviets, Americans, even the British committed war crimes including the killing of Prisoners of War. Just look at the POW numbers that were captured in Normandy. Those were unmotivated, second line, soft troops, the POW rates were extremely low and not because they were such fanatical fighters.... It's just that history is written by the victors and their crimes get conveniently forgotten.

More than 600,000 women committed suicide in Berlin between May and December 1945 after the Soviets occupied Berlin and not because they were heatbroken because the Fuehrer was no longer with them. The wholesale, repeated rape and sexual abuse took its toll. Basically every female between the age of 12 and 80, east of the river Elbe suffered the same fate.

There are no heros in that war. Only shades of gray and some were better than the others, but all sides had black sheep just some had more than others, a lot more than others.

[Josh]

@ Xian, "more than 600,000 women committed suicide"? Are you sure that number is correct? I find that a little hard to believe.

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: janh

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

The initial cadres were in fact made up from guards units of camps and prisons, which in turn were ideologically selected.

The original members of the Totenkopf came from a variety of sources, in addition to those men who came from the existing SS-Verfugungstruppe and the Allgemeine-SS there were two other groups. The first of these was the SS Heimwehr Danzig(Danzig Home Defence Force), and this was the divisions first unit that had combat experience. It was battalion sized and had originally been formed under the title of SS-Totenkopf Sturmbann 'Goetze' and had been intended for police type duties. The second group were draft age personnel from the prison guard formations, most of these men came from the SS-Totenkopfverbande which was controlled at the time by Theodor Eicke, the Totenkopf's first commander. Out of a strength of 20,000 men only 6,500 had come from the SS-Totenkopfverbande. If the SS-Totenkopfverbande had not been accepted for assimilation into the Waffen SS then those members of draft age would have had to serve in the Heer(army), as had been the case prior to the start of the war.

The OKW only had 'tactical' control over the units of the Waffen SS, the SS Fuhrungshauptamt still retained administrative and operational control of the Waffen SS units and was responsible for it's organisation, equipment and order of battle. The SS Fuhrungshauptamt was formed in 1940 and was controlled by Himmler until he stepped down in 1943, at which point SS Obergruppenfuhrer Hans Juttner took over the departments management.

Throughout the war officers and men were transferred, both voluntarily and forced, between the army and Waffen SS units just as they were between army units.

[Theng]

@ Xian, "more than 600,000 women committed suicide"? Are you sure that number is correct? I find that a little hard to believe.

Okay, a high:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbrechen ... _Weltkrieg

Die unten angegebenen Quellen schätzen, dass Angehörige der Roten Armee gegen Ende des Zweiten Weltkrieges und in der Zeit nach Beendigung des Krieges über zwei Millionen deutsche Frauen vergewaltigten,[31][32][33] Mehrfachvergewaltigungen nicht eingerechnet.[34] Davon starben etwa zehn bis zwölf Prozent an Verletzungen, wurden ermordet oder begingen Selbstmord.[35]

35.↑ Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv Freiburg Akten Fremde Heere Ost, Bestand H3, Bd. 483, 657, 665, 667, 690, Bundesarchiv Koblenz; Ostdokumentensammlung Ost-Dok. 2 Nr. 8, 13, 14; Ost-Dok. 2/51, 2/77, 2/96

So the more conservative estimates are at 200,000 to 240,000 murdered after rape or suicide after rape after being "liberated" by the Red Army. My apologies for the high number.

[TulliusDetritus]

Xian, I agree. Anyway, they Red Army was not "liberating" German civilians. They were invanding the country that er... previously invaded them. These crimes are indeed a fact. Suffice to say that even Pravda was forced to say [the audience: the Soviet soldiers themselves] that not all the Germans were guilty.

But of course, what did these soldiers see on their way to Berlin? Their destroyed and occupied land (and countless stories about atrocities). The fate of their POWs (by the end of 1941 two -out of three- million Soviet POWs had ALREADY died). Treblinka, Auschtwitz... It looks like they wanted revenge, that's indeed another fact.