1941 Winter is Horrible!

[Zemke]

I knew it would be bad, but this is BAD! I should have stopped, but I did what the Germans did and pressed on till the very end.

When is this nightmare over!!!

[Titanwarrior89]

I don't know for sure myself but I am in 1 Jan 42(GC) and its still blizzard conditions. The russians are hammering hard-not looking good for me(axis). But I am loving it[:)][:D]

Note: I am on turn 30 something.

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I knew it would be bad, but this is BAD! I should have stopped, but I did what the Germans did and pressed on till the very end.

When is this nightmare over!!!

[Sheytan]

The german Army was tailored for fair weather campaigns. The lack of any provision for a cold weather campaign was part and parcel of the Blitzkrieg strategy the Germans employed.

Frankly for anyone not aware of the real life effect of this lack of provisioning for a pan seasonal campaign by the Germans need only watch the episodes of the WORLD AT WAR specific to the Barbarossa campaign.

I cannot stress enough how unprepared the Germans were for a sustained campaign in harsh weather, in these episodes specific to the Barbarossa campaign until 1942 you can see how much the average soldier suffered. What is most remarkable is the German army held in the 1941 winter counteroffensive under these conditions and went on the offensive in 1942.

Frankly I think the Germans could have won the war, had they played thier cards a bit differently, for example in the World at War program I mentioned German general staff officers that survived the war understood the abject stupidity of the extermination policy Hitler adopted in the East, full well understanding that had the Germans coopted the various nationalitys especially in the Ukraine, and presented themselves as liberators and treated the population accordingly the war could have very easily swung in Germans favor.

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I knew it would be bad, but this is BAD! I should have stopped, but I did what the Germans did and pressed on till the very end.

When is this nightmare over!!!

[Gandalf]

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
...
Frankly I think the Germans could have won the war, had they played thier cards a bit differently, for example in the World at War program I mentioned German general staff officers that survived the war understood the abject stupidity of the extermination policy Hitler adopted in the East, full well understanding that had the Germans coopted the various nationalitys especially in the Ukraine, and presented themselves as liberators and treated the population accordingly the war could have very easily swung in Germans favor.
...

No matter how you cut it, had the Germans still been in the war in late summer of 1945, Berlin and other German cities would have won the nuclear sweepstakes instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Sheytan]

The Nukes were fielded in 1945? Had the ideal happened for the Germans as I supposed based on the previous comments they would have won in Russia by 1944 at the latest. At any rate it is all What if...which is why I used to love playing games like SPI's Global War. Playing as France I lost in Europe, and held French possessions in Asia, in fact I overran Japanese possessions in Asia with a French armored army, all of one point of it. lol.

Edited to add we had a US a Japanese and French, a British and a USSR player. Was a fun game.

ORIGINAL: Gandalf

No matter how you cut it. Had the Germans still been in the war in late summer of 1945, Berlin and other German cities would have won the nuclear sweepstakes instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Zemke]

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

The german Army was tailored for fair weather campaigns. The lack of any provision for a cold weather campaign was part and parcel of the Blitzkrieg strategy the Germans employed.

Frankly for anyone not aware of the real life effect of this lack of provisioning for a pan seasonal campaign by the Germans need only watch the episodes of the WORLD AT WAR specific to the Barbarossa campaign.

I cannot stress enough how unprepared the Germans were for a sustained campaign in harsh weather, in these episodes specific to the Barbarossa campaign until 1942 you can see how much the average soldier suffered. What is most remarkable is the German army held in the 1941 winter counteroffensive under these conditions and went on the offensive in 1942.

Frankly I think the Germans could have won the war, had they played thier cards a bit differently, for example in the World at War program I mentioned German general staff officers that survived the war understood the abject stupidity of the extermination policy Hitler adopted in the East, full well understanding that had the Germans coopted the various nationalitys especially in the Ukraine, and presented themselves as liberators and treated the population accordingly the war could have very easily swung in Germans favor.

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I knew it would be bad, but this is BAD! I should have stopped, but I did what the Germans did and pressed on till the very end.

When is this nightmare over!!!

I am not saying the results are not historical, just expressing how hard it is to watch my wonderful army freeze to death. I made the decision to push the attack to the very end, now I am paying for it. A good lesson for when I play a real human in a PBEM.

[Sheytan]

Indeed, and the wonderful thing about these forums is we can discuss these things in a civil manner! Heres to toasting your next victory.[:)]

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

The german Army was tailored for fair weather campaigns. The lack of any provision for a cold weather campaign was part and parcel of the Blitzkrieg strategy the Germans employed.

Frankly for anyone not aware of the real life effect of this lack of provisioning for a pan seasonal campaign by the Germans need only watch the episodes of the WORLD AT WAR specific to the Barbarossa campaign.

I cannot stress enough how unprepared the Germans were for a sustained campaign in harsh weather, in these episodes specific to the Barbarossa campaign until 1942 you can see how much the average soldier suffered. What is most remarkable is the German army held in the 1941 winter counteroffensive under these conditions and went on the offensive in 1942.

Frankly I think the Germans could have won the war, had they played thier cards a bit differently, for example in the World at War program I mentioned German general staff officers that survived the war understood the abject stupidity of the extermination policy Hitler adopted in the East, full well understanding that had the Germans coopted the various nationalitys especially in the Ukraine, and presented themselves as liberators and treated the population accordingly the war could have very easily swung in Germans favor.

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I knew it would be bad, but this is BAD! I should have stopped, but I did what the Germans did and pressed on till the very end.

When is this nightmare over!!!

I am not saying the results are not historical, just expressing how hard it is to watch my wonderful army freeze to death. I made the decision to push the attack to the very end, now I am paying for it. A good lesson for when I play a real human in a PBEM.

[barkman44]

indeed i have read reports of german soldiers who had the fluid surrounding their brains freezing,sounds a little uncomfortable to me!

[Redmarkus5]

The German General Staff recommended an advance to the line of the Dnepr in 1941, with a second campaign east of the Dnepr in 1942, but Hitler didn't listen - he was convinced that the Soviet Union was a "House of Cards" and that with one kick "the whole rotten edifice will collapse". When the Germans achieved their summer 41 victories and pocketed huge numbers of prisoners, the German generals became convinced that Hitler had actually been right in his assessment.

The winter disaster that met the German army was a result of a political failure, as much as a military and logistical failure. The army was unprepared for winter because the Germans didn't believe the Soviets would last that long. Then, once they had a couple of million foot soldiers deep inside the SU, getting them ready for -40 degree weather was pretty much impossible. They knew what was coming in terms of the weather (they had all studied Napoleon's 1812 campaign in detail) but they didn't believe the Soviets would still be in action.

I have always believed that Hitler lost WW2 on 22 June 1941, because he based his military strategy on wishful thinking.

[barkman44]

I believe it was lost when hitler had guderien swing south to seal the kiev pocket instead of advancing on moscow.

[Redmarkus5]

If you believe that the fall of Moscow would have spelled doom for Stalin, then yes. What about a continued Soviet defence based on the productive capacity of the Urals?

I guess that this is one thing we can 'test' mathematically with this game...

[barkman44]

politically i think it would have been difficult for stalin to retain control from the urals considering the distance.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

The German General Staff recommended an advance to the line of the Dnepr in 1941, with a second campaign east of the Dnepr in 1942, but Hitler didn't listen - he was convinced that the Soviet Union was a "House of Cards" and that with one kick "the whole rotten edifice will collapse". When the Germans achieved their summer 41 victories and pocketed huge numbers of prisoners, the German generals became convinced that Hitler had actually been right in his assessment.

The winter disaster that met the German army was a result of a political failure, as much as a military and logistical failure. The army was unprepared for winter because the Germans didn't believe the Soviets would last that long. Then, once they had a couple of million foot soldiers deep inside the SU, getting them ready for -40 degree weather was pretty much impossible. They knew what was coming in terms of the weather (they had all studied Napoleon's 1812 campaign in detail) but they didn't believe the Soviets would still be in action.

I have always believed that Hitler lost WW2 on 22 June 1941, because he based his military strategy on wishful thinking.

Hmmm, line of the Dnepr? That sounds odd. From the intial Marcks plan Moscow was the main objective of the campaign and that's way beyond the Dnepr. To be added with Leningrad and Rostov later on.

Besides, the germans hit the line of the Dnepr in early July in the center and late July in the south. calling it quits for the season then would be a little odd it seems.

I think a strong case can be made that if the Germans had dug-in when the mud hit, they would have had time to fortify and bring up winter clothing/supplies. The Germans chose to gamble and try to gain all by taking Moscow but lost all in the process.

This game allows you to make those choices. The one thing you're stuck with is no winter clothing wherever you stop.

[Redmarkus5]

Sorry - I didn't say that they made the recommendation in 1941. The recommendation was made a lot earlier - I will look for sources.

The actual campaign plans were produced on request. Planners don't generally decide strategy - they are told what the strategy will be and they then produce a plan to achieve it.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Sorry - I didn't say that they made the recommendation in 1941. The recommendation was made a lot earlier - I will look for sources.

The actual campaign plans were produced on request. Planners don't generally decide strategy - they are told what the strategy will be and they then produce a plan to achieve it.

Hmmm, a lot earlier would probably mean before Blitzkrieg had proven its worth.

Sorry, don't agree. Marcks was given the assignment to come up with a plan for the invasion of Russia and win the war, without further specifications. He came up with what he thought would be a winning campaign plan which was then presented to OKH who then in turn presented it to Hitler and so on and forth.

[Redmarkus5]

Marcks was given his instructions by Halder on 01 August 1940. Halder laid down the specific strategic goals for Marcks.

Halder contributed to a 1955 US Department of the Army study (http://www.scribd.com/doc/12981620/1955 ... 94042-205p) which stated that the initial Army Plan (see page 17) called for drives on Leningrad, Moscow and the line of the Dnepr. An advance beyond the Dnepr was not envisioned at that time and the Luftwaffe was to be assigned the task of eliminating Soviet production and military capabilities further east.

The selection of the Dnepr as the objective in the south was based on the poor state of the Soviet road net. This plan was abandoned when Hitler ordered Guderian to switch his attack from Moscow and move south behind Kiev.

[Singleton Mosby]

Looking forward to playing as the Germans in the 1941 scenario. But for now I am enjoying myself a lot playing the other side.

Hitler lost the war in Russia when he made the huge mistake to treat the Ukranians and Perhaps the Bello-Russians as well as subhumans. So, in '33 or something when he wrote his book, in 1939 when he behaved as he did in Poland and during the first weeks of the war when he continued doing this. Had he done as some had suggested to him and 'liberated' the Ukrain and other parts of the SU the people would have been on his side and seen him as a champion, liberating them from Stalin's brutal yoke. So, I think the war was lost beforehand, and for political and ideological reasons.

[Redmarkus5]

Yes, I agree. This was another facet of the political thinking and it's linked to the notion that the SU would just collapse when attacked. Hitler and the Nazis regarded the Soviet people as inferior. Well, they learned otherwise when the Soviets fought all the way from Stalingrad to Berlin!

[Rasputitsa]

Just finished reading The Retreat: Hitler's First Defeat by Michael Jones which covers the winter of 1941 and the theme that runs through the German soldier's letters home, at all levels, is the eagerness to get to and capture Moscow. They did really seem to think that they could do it, from von Bock down. Then came the surprise at the harshness of conditions, as the winter struck with a vengeance.

So the troops in the field were willing, although winter must have been in the back of their minds, as references to Napoleon's 1812 campaign are common in their letters. However, they seemed to have full confidence that it couldn't happen to them, they trusted the system that had worked so well, up to then.

None of this absolves the High Command from not planning for the inevitable, there were warnings (German military attaché in Moscow for one), but deference to the Fuhrer, or being blinded by the prize, drove them on.

I think that it was possible for the Germans to have 'won' the war, provided they followed the maxims of Clausewitz and Napoleon (who didn't always follow his own advice) and made the primary objective the destruction of the enemies's military force. Also, recognising that it would probably be a two year campaign and if Moscow gets taken in the process, that's a bonus.

However, German policy and behaviour in the East ensured that the population would never accept German occupation and with the loss of Moscow, or not, the Russians would never have gone away, there would always have been the threat from beyond the Urals.

Despite the enormous tragedy of it all, it's quite a story.

[Terminus]

The German army WAS tailored for short campaigns in places with good roads. However, it is a myth that there was no winter clothing available in advance. The problem was that there was no transportation available to carry everything, so the priority became ammunition, fuel, food THEN warm clothing.