DBB: DEI Scen and Map Mods

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ok, here's what it looks like. Subic Bay SE hexside is ocean, NE hexside is both (ocean + land). Only way into Bataan is from Clark. However, there are no roads in the Subic Bay hex, so land movement between the Iba hex and the Subic hex will be difficult. Put a minor road from Clark to the W Clark hex edge (in the general neighborhood of Olongapo) but the road doesn't cross the hexside so again, land movement will be hard into or within the Subic Bay hex. This should protect against an amphib op into Subic Bay, thereby trying to cut-off Clark - it will have hard going to get anywhere and the Clark hex defenders can re-orient much more quickly.

I also think your re-aligned map (with an ocean hexside betwixt Subic Bay and Bataan) is better than the original.

Q:Are you sure there should be no road in Subic Bay heading to Clark?

If this map change makes its way into the GC, the US Marines should start in Subic Bay. It seems odd that they are going to have to spend a week-plus using machetes to carve a path over the mountains to get to Clark.

[Buck Beach]

This may be off the wall and not necessarily applicable to only Bataan-Clark but in the RHS Mod of the original WITP the concept of ferries is used. I believe there were fast and normal paths used to facilitate troop movements between islands and other over water short distances.

From the "for what its worth department" and the peanut gallery.

Buck

Been along time and it just may have been in one of my dreams.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
Q:Are you sure there should be no road in Subic Bay heading to Clark?

If this map change makes its way into the GC, the US Marines should start in Subic Bay. It seems odd that they are going to have to spend a week-plus using machetes to carve a path over the mountains to get to Clark.

No, I'm really not sure at all Joel. I guess for this scenario it doesn't make any difference, but if this ever gets ported into Babes, I worry a bit about having a gamey 'back door' into Clark. But then there's the Subic Bay defenses, and the Marines, and I think there were some PA units and constabulary hanging around in Olongapo City. So the hex would be garrisoned against a ZOC move.

So maybe some kind of road isn't all that bad an idea. What do you think? A trail or a minor road?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
Q:Are you sure there should be no road in Subic Bay heading to Clark?

If this map change makes its way into the GC, the US Marines should start in Subic Bay. It seems odd that they are going to have to spend a week-plus using machetes to carve a path over the mountains to get to Clark.

No, I'm really not sure at all Joel. I guess for this scenario it doesn't make any difference, but if this ever gets ported into Babes, I worry a bit about having a gamey 'back door' into Clark. But then there's the Subic Bay defenses, and the Marines, and I think there were some PA units and constabulary hanging around in Olongapo City. So the hex would be garrisoned against a ZOC move.

So maybe some kind of road isn't all that bad an idea. What do you think? A trail or a minor road?

I took the road from Clark to Subic in the 1960s. A steep and curvy road down the mountain, in a bus with a Filipino driver that probably took delight in scaring the hell out of the Yankee Sailors. Any road would be minor (and easily defensible).

John, do you have any data on PA/PC units in Subic area? Other than the Coast Artillery units on Grande Island....

Also, having read "Racing the Sunshine" (an excellent book), babes is missing freighters Mauna Loa and Jane Christenson - both at sea enroute Philippines on 12/7. Fascinating reading on the cargos of the various ships. Just tracking the 75mm guns for the four FA Battalions in the Pensacola Convoy and for the Philippine Army is quite interesting.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
I took the road from Clark to Subic in the 1960s. A steep and curvy road down the mountain, in a bus with a Filipino driver that probably took delight in scaring the hell out of the Yankee Sailors. Any road would be minor (and easily defensible).

Okey dokey, then.

John, do you have any data on PA/PC units in Subic area? Other than the Coast Artillery units on Grande Island....

Nothing to hang your hat on; mostly hints and inferences from “Bataan; Our Last Ditch” by Whitman. Besides the CA units, the PA had a coast artillery school at Fort Wint, and the 2nd CA (PA) was formed, Dec. 8, from school troops, but were used as infantry when Subic was evacuated, Dec. 24. There were “security” units at Wint, made up from PACA personnel, but no mention made of what units supplied them. Presumably the 92nd CA (PS) since they were shooting 155s and two 75s for beach defense. Two Bns of 31st Inf Rgt (PA) did rifle training at Olongapo, but unknown if any were present on Dec. 7. A Bn of Zambales constabulary had HQ at Olongapo and there were two Coys of Bataan constabulary reported in town when Subic Bay was evacuated. These were many of the constables organized into 4th PC Regt, Dec. 29. But don’t have any real info on who was there Dec. 7.

Also, having read "Racing the Sunshine" (an excellent book), babes is missing freighters Mauna Loa and Jane Christenson - both at sea enroute Philippines on 12/7. Fascinating reading on the cargos of the various ships. Just tracking the 75mm guns for the four FA Battalions in the Pensacola Convoy and for the Philippine Army is quite interesting.

We got Mauna Loa, but it's at Pearl. Be easy to put her in a TF heading to PI. Ain't got Jane. Have to do something about that.

Ciao. John

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: JWE
We got Mauna Loa, but it's at Pearl. Be easy to put her in a TF heading to PI. Ain't got Jane. Have to do something about that.

John

Thanks for the PC data. Forgot about the scattered PC units, some of which became the 4th PC Regiment.

Looks like we got our Mauna Loas mixed. The one at Pearl has the right arrival and sunk dates for the World War I era freighter but is set up as AE-8. AE-8 wasn't completed until October 27, 1943.

Jane Christenson was carrying the rest of the 75mm guns for the units on the Pensacola Convoy (28 of them). The four FA battalions (in Pensacola Convoy) required a total of 48 75mm guns. They were equiped with 20 modernized guns with high speed adaptors. The remaining 28 were on Jane Christenson. Meigs (Pensacola Convoy) also carried 48 75mm guns without high speed adaptors that were intended for the Philippine Army (taken from the Hawaiian Garrison). Another ship, Steel Explorer, had just departed New Orleans with 42 more 75mm guns (and other cargo) for the Philippine Army.

And four more FA Battalions were enroute or about to sail for the Philippines:
1st/145th** in two ships to be part of Convoy 2002 (Tasker H Bliss, President Garfield) left San Francisco 12/6 and 12/7
1st/218th in two ships to be part of Convoy 2003 (Etolin, President Johnson) left San Francisco 12/5.
2nd/138th and 2nd/222nd** were still staging.
** Medium FA Battalions with 155mm guns - all others 75mm guns.

Plans were to replace all the 75mm and 2.95in guns in US/Philippine Scout FA units with new 105mm and pass the older guns to the Philippine army. This, combined with the 90 guns already in ship's holds and a number of guns held in Philippine depots would make up most of the need of the Philippine Army's FA Regiments. Somewhere I have the numbers of 75mm and 2.95in guns held in the Philippine depots but I have hidden it rather well. I'll post if/when I can find it.

Another wonder from Racing the Sunrise:
Vehicles intended for the Canadian Garrison at Hong Kong but taken over by US Army when Don Jose put into Manila: 45 Harley Davidson Motorcycles, 39 3-ton trucks, 63 3/4 ton vans, 2 3/4 ton water trucks, 57 Universal Carriers, 6 Ford Sedans, plus spare parts and tires.

In case anyone is still wondering, I highly recomment Racing the Sunrise.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Another wonder from Racing the Sunrise:
Vehicles intended for the Canadian Garrison at Hong Kong but taken over by US Army when Don Jose put into Manila: 45 Harley Davidson Motorcycles,

I still get a twinge when I read about all the Harleys that were lost. Way back when, one of my friends bought a war surplus Harley dispach bike for $50.00 - still in the crate and packed in 20 year old cosmoline. Took forever to get it working, but back then in Florida a 14 year old could get a learners' permit, and if you had a bike, you could ride in daylight without a licensed driver, so he was motivated. A paper route was a wonderful thing.

[Don Bowen]

OK, found it. From Trota, The Philippine Army.

In depots in the Philippines as of November 12, 1941:
96 British Style 75mm, including 14 with wooden wheels!
52 2.95 inch pack howitzers.

[Tijanski]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: JWE
We got Mauna Loa, but it's at Pearl. Be easy to put her in a TF heading to PI. Ain't got Jane. Have to do something about that.

John

Thanks for the PC data. Forgot about the scattered PC units, some of which became the 4th PC Regiment.

Looks like we got our Mauna Loas mixed. The one at Pearl has the right arrival and sunk dates for the World War I era freighter but is set up as AE-8. AE-8 wasn't completed until October 27, 1943.

Jane Christenson was carrying the rest of the 75mm guns for the units on the Pensacola Convoy (28 of them). The four FA battalions (in Pensacola Convoy) required a total of 48 75mm guns. They were equiped with 20 modernized guns with high speed adaptors. The remaining 28 were on Jane Christenson. Meigs (Pensacola Convoy) also carried 48 75mm guns without high speed adaptors that were intended for the Philippine Army (taken from the Hawaiian Garrison). Another ship, Steel Explorer, had just departed New Orleans with 42 more 75mm guns (and other cargo) for the Philippine Army.

And four more FA Battalions were enroute or about to sail for the Philippines:
1st/145th** in two ships to be part of Convoy 2002 (Tasker H Bliss, President Garfield) left San Francisco 12/6 and 12/7
1st/218th in two ships to be part of Convoy 2003 (Etolin, President Johnson) left San Francisco 12/5.
2nd/138th and 2nd/222nd** were still staging.
** Medium FA Battalions with 155mm guns - all others 75mm guns.

Plans were to replace all the 75mm and 2.95in guns in US/Philippine Scout FA units with new 105mm and pass the older guns to the Philippine army. This, combined with the 90 guns already in ship's holds and a number of guns held in Philippine depots would make up most of the need of the Philippine Army's FA Regiments. Somewhere I have the numbers of 75mm and 2.95in guns held in the Philippine depots but I have hidden it rather well. I'll post if/when I can find it.

Another wonder from Racing the Sunrise:
Vehicles intended for the Canadian Garrison at Hong Kong but taken over by US Army when Don Jose put into Manila: 45 Harley Davidson Motorcycles, 39 3-ton trucks, 63 3/4 ton vans, 2 3/4 ton water trucks, 57 Universal Carriers, 6 Ford Sedans, plus spare parts and tires.

In case anyone is still wondering, I highly recomment Racing the Sunrise.

Who ARE you people? I am always astonishlingly amazed at how how much you know and how far you will go for accuracy.

I got religeon. I can feel it. I wont use anything anymore but babes scenarios because you guys are so far ahead of the power curve it isnt funny. Everybody complains about everthing but you have fixed it all and done more besides and it has more details than the regular scenarios and none of your players bitch. Who the hell ARE you people anyway. And how can I get on your list.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
OK, found it. From Trota, The Philippine Army.

In depots in the Philippines as of November 12, 1941:
96 British Style 75mm, including 14 with wooden wheels!
52 2.95 inch pack howitzers.

Hi Don. Perfect!! All the usual sources are pretty vague as to the arty organization and equipment. This is a God-send because it puts an ultimate limit on tubes available for deployment with PA arty.

I don't fash myself too much over the wooden wheels; this was the PI in 1941 after all, when folks still used horses and mules. A lot of PI roads weren't all that well adapted to pneumatic tyred, high speed gun carriages, generally. Think they would be acceptable as mobile arty within the game scope. Think a horse drawn battery would move over that road from Olongapo just as quick as a truck drawn.

Ok, back to the editor. Thanks, ever so much.

Ciao. John

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Tijanski
Who ARE you people?

Just your everyday pirates with a questionable sense of morality; possibly drunks (Don and I both like single malt scotch, so gifts of that sort will not be taken amiss). Yet we do grace the walls of certain teenage girls (daughters mostly) and enhance the nightly fantasies of certain grown women (significant other units, mostly).

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
Q:Are you sure there should be no road in Subic Bay heading to Clark?

If this map change makes its way into the GC, the US Marines should start in Subic Bay. It seems odd that they are going to have to spend a week-plus using machetes to carve a path over the mountains to get to Clark.

No, I'm really not sure at all Joel. I guess for this scenario it doesn't make any difference, but if this ever gets ported into Babes, I worry a bit about having a gamey 'back door' into Clark. But then there's the Subic Bay defenses, and the Marines, and I think there were some PA units and constabulary hanging around in Olongapo City. So the hex would be garrisoned against a ZOC move.

So maybe some kind of road isn't all that bad an idea. What do you think? A trail or a minor road?

I took the road from Clark to Subic in the 1960s. A steep and curvy road down the mountain, in a bus with a Filipino driver that probably took delight in scaring the hell out of the Yankee Sailors. Any road would be minor (and easily defensible).

John, do you have any data on PA/PC units in Subic area? Other than the Coast Artillery units on Grande Island....Also, having read "Racing the Sunshine" (an excellent book), babes is missing freighters Mauna Loa and Jane Christenson - both at sea enroute Philippines on 12/7. Fascinating reading on the cargos of the various ships. Just tracking the 75mm guns for the four FA Battalions in the Pensacola Convoy and for the Philippine Army is quite interesting.

Don -

This caused, a quick trip down memory lane. 1973, Uss Midway, CVA 41, 5th Division, assigned to the starboard aft 5 / 54 mk 39 mod 0 Gun Mount - which I thought was the hottest thing since sliced bread. I went home on leave from Midway while she was in Subic Bay, although recently homeported in Yokosuka Japan. Returned about a month later, and had to wait at the Subic transit Barracks. While waiting, did some Shore Patrol time, on Grande Island, and distinctly remember admiring and looking over the 6inch disappearing coast defense rifles. Hope that they are still there, am aware that other historic cannon, in the P.I., have been cut up for scrap. That is a sad end to these magnificent weapons. Anyways, got carried away (again). Keep up the good work. Your audience awaits...

Former Squid Mac <grin>
P.S. I am new at this screen shot business, hope it takes...

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

Don -

This caused, a quick trip down memory lane. 1973, Uss Midway, CVA 41, 5th Division, assigned to the starboard aft 5 / 54 mk 39 mod 0 Gun Mount - which I thought was the hottest thing since sliced bread. I went home on leave from Midway while she was in Subic Bay, although recently homeported in Yokosuka Japan. Returned about a month later, and had to wait at the Subic transit Barracks. While waiting, did some Shore Patrol time, on Grande Island, and distinctly remember admiring and looking over the 6inch disappearing coast defense rifles. Hope that they are still there, am aware that other historic cannon, in the P.I., have been cut up for scrap. That is a sad end to these magnificent weapons. Anyways, got carried away (again). Keep up the good work. Your audience awaits...

Former Squid Mac <grin>
P.S. I am new at this screen shot business, hope it takes...

Hi Mac. I too was in the transit barracks for a few weeks - waiting to catch an AO for a ride to a DLG on North SAR in the Gulf of Tonkin. That was a few years before you. Played some softball at the rec center on Grande Island, but the old CD emplacements were off limits due to some snake activity. Enough said for me. Wanted to go down to Corregidor to see where my cousin was stationed, but never did make it.

[JWE]

Ok, here's how Malaya works out. Left side is what was; right side is what is now.

All three hexes have 'bases', left one is Batu Pahat, center is Kluong, right one is Mersing.

[JWE]

The Subic Bay hex is pretty much there, now. Wanted to avoid a 'gamey' ZOC landing there but as Joel says, the Marines would be ticked off at having to hack their way to Clark. And the Japanese used Subic Bay as a major staging base during the Bataan campaign.

So ... added a minor road from Clark to the W edge of the Clark hex; added a trail from Subic Bay to the E edge of the Subic Bay hex (Don's twisty road up the mountain from Olongapo). They meet in the middle. Supply is able to flow (more like a dribble, but it does flow) and it's way quicker to move from Clark to the hex boundary than it is to move from Subic to the hex boundary, so assuming Clark is adequately garrisoned, this prevents the ZOC cut-off move to prevent retreat through Clark to Bataan.

Gave it to the team to play around with and indications are good. The Marines appreciate it. Thank you Joel and Don for the inputs.

Ciao. J

[berto]

It's this sort of attention to detail and demonstrated expertise that helps to make this the best game, and the best game community, ever.

I can hardly wait for this scenario!

(impeccable timing, berto! [see below] )

[JWE]

Unfortunately, we will no longer support Babes. Too many whiners on the main forum causing the code to be skewed out of all touch with reality. It causes too many problems for us to deal with. We are pulling our login and leaving the forum, so will no longer be available. Hope you all enjoy WiTP Castor/Nemo edition. Good bye.

[berto]

Why let a few malcontents spoil it for the rest of us? [&:]

[Buck Beach]

Has something been changed recently with the code in the most recent patch that mucks up the mod presently or what. Very confused by this. It sort of comes out of left field.

Buck

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Has something been changed recently with the code in the most recent patch that mucks up the mod presently or what. Very confused by this. It sort of comes out of left field.

Buck

Look at the "BUFF" thread in The War Room.