1941 Winter is Horrible!

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Rasputitsa
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RE: 1941 Winter is Horrible!

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: MengJiao

I know that's the old view. But new and very fashionable evidence has come to light. Hitler was very worried about the USA. I know it sounds a bit nutty, but apparently he was. I first heard of that nutty thing about the US in a West German Army staff study so I wasn't as surprised as I might have been to find it in Tooze.
As for German industrial capacity. Yes, it could barely get an army going in 1940 and according to Tooze it was already running as hard as it could. Not Surprisingly Todt killed himself in 1942 when it became clear that things weren't working so well.
The deal with Britain is perhaps the oddest. Hitler apparently thought it was clear to everybody that the USA was the real enemy of the British Empire and he assumed the British could see that. Hence his expectation that the British Empire would at least sit out WWII rather like the French. Thus the attack on Russia was relatively rational and not as ideological as it seems since (according to Tooze) he had to get hold of most of the Russian economy so as to eventually face the USA.
It's hard to see how he was wrong about that. The Russian economy may have been mismanaged, but it had a lot more potential than the German economy which would have been very very lucky to reach merely Russian levels of mismanagement. Had the Nazis secured most of the Russian economy and held onto it into say 1944, they would have been in much better shape than they were in the 1944 we know where the badly managed Russian economy plus lend-lease was doing a lot better than the really amazingly very badly managed German economy was doing.
According to Tooze, Speer did nothing of any substance,but was pretty good at public relations. And as for Todt, he showed his assessment of the situation by killing himself.

New and fashionable does not necessarily mean credible.

I thought that Todt died in an air crash.

Speer seems to have been well regarded and German production figures increased during his time, despite Hitler's habit of splitting responsibilities, giving Goering responsibility for the unfolding 5 year plan, dooming production to departmental conflicts.

If Hitler was so afraid of the USA, why did he declare war in 1941, when he did not have to and the Japanese had earlier not declared war on Soviet Russia in support of Germany. Surely, if he feared the US, his best move was to do nothing and allow the US to become heavily involved in the Pacific, he would then have a freer hand in Europe.

His stated reason for attacking Russia, apart from his long held wish for Lebensraum in the East, was that Russia was 'England's' last hope. This at a time when the US had no way of projecting power into any of Hitler's areas of action. It is not necessary to believe what people say, unless their actions match, Hitler showed no fear of the US in his actions. If Tooze is correct, then Hitler's actions become totally inexplicable.

Hitler could have been in no doubt that Britain did not intend to sit on the sidelines, Churchill had made that crystal clear in actions such as, the British intent to destroy any elements of the French Fleet that did not sail into British control, or into internment.

Germany industry was out-performing Russian production for a good part of the war, however, 500,000 lend-lease trucks and jeeps mobilised the Russian army, allowing Russian production to concentrate on large quantities of basic, but very capable, AFVs and support weapons.

It is difficult to see much rationally in anything that Hitler did, which is why it's nice to have WiTE to try things another way. [:)]




"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
Mike Parker
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RE: 1941 Winter is Horrible!

Post by Mike Parker »

Hitler absolutely HAD to attack ths SU. His entire political regime' was based upon the assault upon Communism. Its a rather complicated issue, but Nazi Germany was about alot more than just production figures, it was a phenomenon driven by a philosophy and that philosophy required an assault upon Communism. Sure he saw the wealth of the USSR as a benefit to Germany BUT that was a side benefit to his crusade against communism.
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: 1941 Winter is Horrible!

Post by TulliusDetritus »

I very much hope it's horrible because I just started a PBEM as Soviet. If I manage to survive that is.
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
MengJiao
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RE: 1941 Winter is Horrible!

Post by MengJiao »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: MengJiao

I know that's the old view. But new and very fashionable evidence has come to light. Hitler was very worried about the USA. I know it sounds a bit nutty, but apparently he was. According to Tooze, Speer did nothing of any substance,but was pretty good at public relations. And as for Todt, he showed his assessment of the situation by killing himself.

New and fashionable does not necessarily mean credible.

I thought that Todt died in an air crash.

Yes. It appears Todt's plane blew up after he toured the East Front in September 1942 and reported to Hitler that Germany was doomed.
It seems a bit suicidal to report such bad news to Hitler.

I find Tooze convincing. For one thing it makes the Nazi regime seem somewhat rational. The USA really was the force that ultimately doomed the Nazis even if Hitler rather irrationally jumped to declare war on the USA. Tooze also makes more sense in his reading of other Nazi policies and the economic impacts of taking much of Europe and of Allied bombing.

Anyway, here's a long review of Tooze:

http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/review-t ... dam-tooze/
MengJiao
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RE: 1941 Winter is Horrible!

Post by MengJiao »

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

Hitler absolutely HAD to attack ths SU. His entire political regime' was based upon the assault upon Communism. Its a rather complicated issue, but Nazi Germany was about alot more than just production figures, it was a phenomenon driven by a philosophy and that philosophy required an assault upon Communism. Sure he saw the wealth of the USSR as a benefit to Germany BUT that was a side benefit to his crusade against communism.

Well, Tooze's point is that 50 years of research on the warm and human side of Nazi motives such as "assault on Communism" is all well and good, but a cool and close reading of German economic problems seems to allow a better reconstruction of Nazi decision-making than a purely ideological approach does.
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RE: 1941 Winter is Horrible!

Post by Mike Parker »

Well, Tooze's point is that 50 years of research on the warm and human side of Nazi motives such as "assault on Communism" is all well and good, but a cool and close reading of German economic problems seems to allow a better reconstruction of Nazi decision-making than a purely ideological approach does.

I haven't read Tooze, but I have studied both sides philosophically. No matter the economic realities of the situation, Hitler's regime' and Stalin's for that matter were both strongly and indeed intrinsically controlled by idealogical imperatives. Nazi Facism and Stalinism were fated to contend and regardless of the economic realities.
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RE: 1941 Winter is Horrible!

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker
Hitler absolutely HAD to attack ths SU. His entire political regime' was based upon the assault upon Communism. Its a rather complicated issue, but Nazi Germany was about alot more than just production figures, it was a phenomenon driven by a philosophy and that philosophy required an assault upon Communism. Sure he saw the wealth of the USSR as a benefit to Germany BUT that was a side benefit to his crusade against communism.

Agreed - there are many occasions when Hitler's actions were driven by messianic belief, with rationality nowhere in sight. Many of his actions make no sense until seen through the lens of a dictator's eye. He split responsibilities, even though it damaged production, because the conflicting departments would have to turn to him for adjudication. The stop order before Dunkirk was motivated by a need to exert control over his generals, even though it risked the final success of the whole operation, you could argue even the whole war.

The Nazis tossed away any realistic chance of a nuclear weapon, because their philosophy was more important to them, than good science.

Therefore, his reasoning for attacking the Soviet Union and declaring war on the US can only be understood by taking into account his irrationality and that of his henchmen. Production figures allowed him to browbeat his generals with his ability to memorise detail they could not contradict, be he himself had much more faith in 'will' than production. [:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
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hgilmer3
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RE: 1941 Winter is Horrible!

Post by hgilmer3 »

I told you guys I didn't know and it was what I would have done, lol.

It came down Two toughest kids on the block, I guess. Sooner or later, they're gonna fight.

(hehe)
KurtC in the WITE PBEM module.
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Rasputitsa
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RE: 1941 Winter is Horrible!

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3
I told you guys I didn't know and it was what I would have done, lol.

It came down Two toughest kids on the block, I guess. Sooner or later, they're gonna fight.

(hehe)

Good summing up !

We're blaming you for being way off thread. [:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
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