A $90 computer wargame?

[Chad Harrison]

I just wanted to throw my 2 bits in here. I have purchaes the last three high priced games from Matrix (War in the Pacific: Admirals Edition, Command Ops: Battles of the Bulge and now War in the East). Each of those game had a very heated, very long debate about the price for those games. I stayed out of those because I dont try to argue with people about thier purchasing decisions, because its their decision.

However, the reason that I am more than happy to pay that much for these three games is because I will be playing these games for years and years. They are that good. They are that deep. They are that well researched. Except for BofB, they have PBEM. And better yet, they are all very well supported.

Compare that against buying a mediocre $40 game. Or even a $20 game. I will play these mainstream titles for a couple hours over the course of a week or two and then they are shelved. If I buy 3 or 4 of these mainstream clones, I have just spent just as much as any of these wargames. The difference: I will still be playing that wargame for years to come.

Obviously its your money and your call, but thats why I as a consumer who has nothing to do with Matrix is more than happy to pay that much for a great game. And not to mention supporting these companies (such as Panther or 2by3) so they continue to make these 'monster' games.

Chad

[hgilmer3]

But while Mr. Grigsby has released more than one clunker (War in Russia was abysmal),

This line more than any other makes me think you are trolling. War in Russia is considered a fine game by most wargamers. Hell, I still played it every now and then before WITE came out.

WiTE and WiTP-AE pretty much secured Gary Grigsby as being the all time great war game developer for large scale war games.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: jeffward

Your analogy is off. What I'm semi-saying is, if you're gonna gouge me I'll take my business elsewhere.

The word "gouge" is so overused and misunderstood. And offensive in this case. Gouging is NOT a matter of opinion. Gouging really has a very narrow meaning. There are laws, federal and state that deal with real price gouging. In the pejorative sense price gouging is when necessities such as food, clothing, shelter...are priced at levels outrageously higher than normal, usually to take advantage of a natural disaster or shortages due to other reasons, such as the 1973-1974 OPEC embargo of oil to the U.S. Even in these instances there are disagreements about whether there should be laws dealing with these issues.

You are not being gouged. You just are not, as a consumer, willing to pay the price for an item of entertainment that is fairly, legally and rightfully set by the manufacturer/maker/designers....! And as warspite1 states "Matrix provides niche war games for a niche market.", and that's key. There is not a huge population of gamers like those of us who find $90.00 a bargain.

I must again jump on warspite1's bandwagon:

"absurdly belligerent
Internet anonymity
Economics 101
sane people
absurd anonymous responses

...how bizarre..... "

Those bizarre accusations are, uh, bizarre and should be explained. Not one response was even close to being "absurdly belligerent". This is not "economics 101", it's economics 1, except rarely do people understand even level 1. As for "absurd anonymous responses"?? Well, you just joined. Today. Several of us, like junk2drive, Hertston, JAMiAM, Terminus, JudgeDredd and I have been around from 4-10 years. The other members have been around a little less, but still several years so we are not totally anonymous. We do have a history here and that counts for something. And we are defenitley not sycophants.

The game is worth more than $90. I would have paid just about any price(though it might have required a second mortgage).

[rich12545]

I remember when wargames first came out.  Strategic Simulations was the first and only publisher for the first few years starting in 1980 or 81.  Games were on 5 1/4 floppies, had horrible graphics and not much to them.  Ram and storage space was minimal so what did you expect?  Anyhow, they cost $60 in 1980 dollars.  How much would that be today?  I won't be buying WitE because it's not my kind of game but after paying $60 for several games (you're welcome Joel), $90 is a real bargain imo.

[diablo1]

I wish you luck in picking up a title comparable to WitE elsewhere. If you find one, could you let us know?

Well really there's already been two, SSI's "Second Front" and "War in Russia" and I even have another called "Road to Moscow". I forget what the title of the HPS game is but that's yet another one. Games don't have to be totally identical to be the same. A few tweaks here and there or small additions to the mechanics of how the game plays doesn't change what it represents. Just yet another battle of Barbarossa. This time to cost the gamer $80 to $100

[parusski]

Yeah, great point. I remember paying $35-45.00 for PC games around 1990 which would cost between $58 and $70 in today's prices. And they were crap games.

[sprior]

Buying a wargame is not like death or taxes and can be easily avoided.

[junk2drive]

1998 I paid $79 for Legend of Zelda for N64. Who remembers how much Space Invaders was for Atari?

[Toby42]

Don't Feed the TROLL!!! Yea Jeff, take your business somewhere else.... This whole thing has been dissed over before. I can't stand people knocking something that they don't own.....

[vonRocko]

Why is he a troll? He just gave his opinion, and because you guys don't agree, he's a troll! For what it's worth, $90 is alot for a game, no matter how you guys rationalize it. For cryin out loud, let people give their opinions!

[jomni]

HPS games are equally, if not more involved, and they never go for more than 50 bucks.

Do you realize that if you buy all East Front Campaign games from HPS, it will be 7 games at $50 a pop?
WITE covers all these theaters at considerably less the price.

Well board wargames are even more expensive and you don't get the convenience of auto calculation, rules interpretation and keeping, fog of war, AI, online play. And there are still people who collect them. Just putting things into perspective.

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

1998 I paid $79 for Legend of Zelda for N64. Who remembers how much Space Invaders was for Atari?

I remember the old Electronics Boutiques before they were taken over my Gamestop.
It was my 11th birthday in 1995 (yeah I am one of the young ones around here) and Chrono Trigger had been out for a few months. It was still one of the big time releases of the year and was still prominently displayed in stores.
I had something like 50 in birthday money and I saw the game. The shop person talked it up and made me want it but I didn't have enough money. It was $79 I begged for an advance on some money if I could do chores at a later date. My parents relented and let me have the extra 35 It was several weeks worth of things like vaccuming, doing laundry for the entire family and that summer we added a deck onto our house and my father was do it yourselfer. I hauled enough lumber that year to build a dozen first rates.
Anyways....
It was completely worth it. Sure the game was probably overpriced. But it is still one of my favorites to this day and had the best story of any game I played.

Some things are worth the 'luxury expense'
I have not played WitE (that is going to change soon) but like WITP and AE they are labors of love and are worth the extra little bit of coin.

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: jomni

HPS games are equally, if not more involved, and they never go for more than 50 bucks.

Do you realize that if you buy all East Front Campaign games from HPS, it will be 7 games at $50 a pop?
WITE covers all these theaters at considerably less the price.

I agree, though PzC is a completely different scale. Playing Moscow '41 in Panzer Campaigns and War in the East is a completely different experience on their own. Of which I don't see why the OP brought up HPS games comparison in the first place. They are completely different games.

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Why is he a troll? He just gave his opinion, and because you guys don't agree, he's a troll! For what it's worth, $90 is alot for a game, no matter how you guys rationalize it. For cryin out loud, let people give their opinions!

Voicing opinions are fine, it's when the person is making ludicrous and bold statements he knows nothing about. Claiming a company is gouging is pretty bold statement that needs some backing with evidence.

[Lützow]

Started my gaming career with adventures from Sierra and LucasArts, at a time when pc titles were still exotic between amiga and atari shelves. Everything got imported from the US and the average price was DM 120,-, the equivalent of $80,- (DM was our currency before we got the dreaded Euro).

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: jeffward

Your analogy is off. What I'm semi-saying is, if you're gonna gouge me I'll take my business elsewhere.

I guess I'll by some McDonald's stock. [;)][:D]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: jeffward
What I'm semi-saying is, if you're gonna gouge me I'll take my business elsewhere.

But you can't because there is nothing eqivalent anywhere !

=

Exactly!!! You only get what you pay for. I've bought BFTB, WITE and WITP AE and all are top shelf games and worth the price IMHO.

ORIGINAL: jeffward

Yeah guys! And what most (not all) of you are missing is that, while trying not to be nearly as absurdly belligerent as some of you (ain't Internet anonymity grand!), IT'S MY OPINION that $90 crossed the line. IT'S MY PERCEPTION that that price point - even for one game - makes Matrix games less appealing.

And before you start with Economics 101 again, I've invented a product I've made a living off that product, I have an online business and have been self employed for the last 25 years. Rest assured I understand what it takes to make a profit.

Obviously you want the game or you wouldn't be making such an effort complaining about the cost. You don't see me on some HPS site complaining about dated graphics because I don't care. I do own and enjoy Naval Battles Guadalcanal, however.

I wish i had a quarter for everyone that has complained about prices here stating they own and run a business. Free games for everyone if I would ever get that windfall.

[bairdlander2]

I surprised pc wargames have stayed around the same price,WiR went for $80 back in the 80's.If you dont like the price,wait 10-15 years and get it when its reduced[:D]

[diablo1]

If you dont like the price,wait 10-15 years and get it when its reduced

Don't have to wait that long it will be reduced next christmas or perhaps even in july when Matrix has their christmas in july sale.[:)]

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: jomni

HPS games are equally, if not more involved, and they never go for more than 50 bucks.

Do you realize that if you buy all East Front Campaign games from HPS, it will be 7 games at $50 a pop?
WITE covers all these theaters at considerably less the price.

Well board wargames are even more expensive and you don't get the convenience of auto calculation, rules interpretation and keeping, fog of war, AI, online play. And there are still people who collect them. Just putting things into perspective.

Very true...WiTE cost me a about 80 bucks(NWS) but I also dropped 100 bucks on DAK2 and

another 90 on DAK...Boardgames are very expensive these days even moreso than pc wargames...

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Why is he a troll? He just gave his opinion, and because you guys don't agree, he's a troll! For what it's worth, $90 is alot for a game, no matter how you guys rationalize it. For cryin out loud, let people give their opinions!

Warspite1

Please read the posts VonRocko. He is not a troll for voicing an opinion; he gave his opinion, and others politely gave theirs - and those largely did not agree with his.

That having been done, he then spat back a lot of mindless nonesense (see post 14 (I can't be bothered to repeat it)) that was designed to get an argument going - as was I believe, the original intention - although that was not clear until post 14.

Yes, $90 may be a lot for a game, or it may not depending on your point of view, but that should be debated in a civilised manner.

Sorry V22 Osprey - I should read the posts too [;)]. I have just said in a long winded way what you said a few posts earlier - apologies.