Has anyone ever taken Moscow in 1941 playing GC

[rtb1017]

At the start of turn 18 (Oct 1941) and start of the turn I decided to put operations on a halt. I mainly cleaned up, organized and refit for the next three mud turns. Exceptions are the rumanians and Hungarians in the south made it to the top of the Crimea and AGN reached Lake Ladoga (Slugfest) but I have not taken the tgwo important Soviet supply points yet.

I was really tempted to resume the offensive in AGC on turn 21 (snow) but decided against it even though at some spots I was only 4-5 hexes away. The wall of soviet units is intimidating but I know I will have a hard time breaking into moscow before the blizzard. I felt teh dikllemma and the chagrin that OKH must have felt at the time and how tempting it was. I probably wont be resuming teh offensive until the blizzard is over. My current line goes from South of Leningrad - Rzhev, Vzayma, NW of Braynask, Orel, Kursk-Dneprpetrovsk, Zhitomir.

Resuming the offensive in the Moscow area will be intimdiating and Leningrad will be another slugfest to take. The real opening is AGS which parallels the situation in 1942 for Case Blue. This will be a long war which for gaming purposes is fine because I was in a dillema about what to do if I take Moscow in 1941 and win the game. I may not feel like playing another one until I take a break from the game which has consumed my thoughts.

I do have one question, is it worth it to dot your front lines with Fortified Units to blunt the Soviet Winter offensive that is coming soon.

[Flaviusx]

I know Andy has done it, and I think Jon has as well.

[jjdenver]

I'm pretty sure it's possible in PBEM to take Moscow although games seem to not have gone that far yet. But in 2 of my games it looks possible and in at least one of the AAR's it looks possible.

I think the biggest question that doesn't have a good answer though is the last one you referred to: how to deal with Soviet winter as Germans. I read on another thread that the winter effects might need to be adjusted by game mechanic/patch tweak. From everything I read now winter seems even more brutal on the Wermacht than it was historically. Scary.

[rtb1017]

Are they Testers and Developers. I would like to know how many rank and file gamers have. I am kinda pleased that my progress has paralleled history but cringe at what is coming next.

[CarnageINC]

I took it by sacrificing Leningrad. I came in from the north in the Summer of 42.

[Pawsy]

Sounds like a sensible compromise. Moscow is a more attractive proposition in campaign turns. Realistically I think its loss could have changed the course of the eastern front war.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: starbuck310

Sounds like a sensible compromise. Moscow is a more attractive proposition in campaign turns. Realistically I think its loss could have changed the course of the eastern front war.

I wish there was a morale penalty for the Soviets or Germans for capitals being taken for a little bit. The only thing they suffer is less manpower to draw from and if your lucky any factories that may have been in place.

[randallw]

Not only did you take it, it's solidly in your hands. [&o]

[Davekhps]

In my first Axis GC, I didn't take anything in 1941, got Leningrad in 1942, got Moscow in 43, and got Stalingrad in 44.

I'm sure I could have gone further, but I was very conservative with mud and winter turns, perhaps too much so after 1941.

I'll have to play more games to validate my concerns, but I'm *really* worried that the Soviet AI essentially gives up after Winter 1941. 

I managed to successfully build a strong winter defense: begun on turn 18, checkerboard defense-in-depth strongest opposite Moscow, three lines where possible, two at a minimum, panzer armies as my mobile reserve.  Set as many infantry divisions as possilbe to static, used the now-free AP to build about 30 fortified areas early to start the ball rolling on building forts, uniformally disbanded all FAs not in cities the moment a Soviet unit came next to the hex). 

Result: I lost very few hexes along the length of the front, suffered no catastrophes, in fact I found the winter to be nowhere near as challenging as I had feared.  Come spring I was able to begin my campaign anew.

1942, the Soviets defended Leningrad well enough (mostly just by blocking my attack), but once Leningrad fell, that was all she wrote-- Moscow to Gorky fell easily in 1943, and there is simply no resistance at all after that.  Scores of 1 strength Soviet divisions and corps, 4 to 8 at max if they're dug in but all easily pocketed.  Plenty more zero strength units devoid of any strength.  Took Stalingrad in May 1944, and am just waiting to grab enough VP to force an automatic decisive victory (which for the record requires pretty much every big city west of the Urals, arguably unrealistically so-- you need Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and everything west, but  also enough in the pile of Gorky, Saratov, Grozny, Kazan, etc. to win).

Anyway, again, while the game is long (though fast!), even as the Axis, it's not too terribly challenging on normal.  I'll try it on a higher difficulty for my next campaign, or simply restrict myself to the 1941 campaign to try to achieve major objectives then.

[Singleton Mosby]

ORIGINAL: Davekhps

In my first Axis GC, I didn't take anything in 1941, got Leningrad in 1942, got Moscow in 43, and got Stalingrad in 44.

Glad to hear there's still something after this terrible winter. I wasn't conservative and are now pushed back as a consequence of it. I didn't even come close to taking Moscow though.

[jjdenver]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC
I wish there was a morale penalty for the Soviets or Germans for capitals being taken for a little bit. The only thing they suffer is less manpower to draw from and if your lucky any factories that may have been in place.

Well there are a lot of rail factory points in Moscow that can't be moved so that has to hurt USSR as well. Not only is rail great for strategic shifting of troops - it helps keep fatigue/wear-tear on tank units lower than marching them around.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: Davekhps

In my first Axis GC, I didn't take anything in 1941, got Leningrad in 1942, got Moscow in 43, and got Stalingrad in 44.

I'm sure I could have gone further, but I was very conservative with mud and winter turns, perhaps too much so after 1941.

I'll have to play more games to validate my concerns, but I'm *really* worried that the Soviet AI essentially gives up after Winter 1941. 

I managed to successfully build a strong winter defense: begun on turn 18, checkerboard defense-in-depth strongest opposite Moscow, three lines where possible, two at a minimum, panzer armies as my mobile reserve.  Set as many infantry divisions as possilbe to static, used the now-free AP to build about 30 fortified areas early to start the ball rolling on building forts, uniformally disbanded all FAs not in cities the moment a Soviet unit came next to the hex). 

Result: I lost very few hexes along the length of the front, suffered no catastrophes, in fact I found the winter to be nowhere near as challenging as I had feared.  Come spring I was able to begin my campaign anew.

1942, the Soviets defended Leningrad well enough (mostly just by blocking my attack), but once Leningrad fell, that was all she wrote-- Moscow to Gorky fell easily in 1943, and there is simply no resistance at all after that.  Scores of 1 strength Soviet divisions and corps, 4 to 8 at max if they're dug in but all easily pocketed.  Plenty more zero strength units devoid of any strength.  Took Stalingrad in May 1944, and am just waiting to grab enough VP to force an automatic decisive victory (which for the record requires pretty much every big city west of the Urals, arguably unrealistically so-- you need Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and everything west, but  also enough in the pile of Gorky, Saratov, Grozny, Kazan, etc. to win).

Anyway, again, while the game is long (though fast!), even as the Axis, it's not too terribly challenging on normal.  I'll try it on a higher difficulty for my next campaign, or simply restrict myself to the 1941 campaign to try to achieve major objectives then.

I've wondered how well the Soviet AI will hold up over the long haul. Sounds like you did quite a good job on the AI and that concerns me. But then again its on Normal so there are plenty of levels to go up and there are always pbem games.

[Walloc]

Yeah, yeah im bragging. Vs AI on normal. Made one huge closed pocket around Moscow on turn 16 with 4 Pz corps.
This the aftermath. Both Moscow and the last of Leningrad fell on turn 17. Mud timing [;)].

So it can be done,

Rasmus

[rtb1017]

ORIGINAL: Davekhps

In my first Axis GC, I didn't take anything in 1941, got Leningrad in 1942, got Moscow in 43, and got Stalingrad in 44.

I'm sure I could have gone further, but I was very conservative with mud and winter turns, perhaps too much so after 1941.

I'll have to play more games to validate my concerns, but I'm *really* worried that the Soviet AI essentially gives up after Winter 1941. 

I managed to successfully build a strong winter defense: begun on turn 18, checkerboard defense-in-depth strongest opposite Moscow, three lines where possible, two at a minimum, panzer armies as my mobile reserve.  Set as many infantry divisions as possilbe to static, used the now-free AP to build about 30 fortified areas early to start the ball rolling on building forts, uniformally disbanded all FAs not in cities the moment a Soviet unit came next to the hex). 

Result: I lost very few hexes along the length of the front, suffered no catastrophes, in fact I found the winter to be nowhere near as challenging as I had feared.  Come spring I was able to begin my campaign anew.

1942, the Soviets defended Leningrad well enough (mostly just by blocking my attack), but once Leningrad fell, that was all she wrote-- Moscow to Gorky fell easily in 1943, and there is simply no resistance at all after that.  Scores of 1 strength Soviet divisions and corps, 4 to 8 at max if they're dug in but all easily pocketed.  Plenty more zero strength units devoid of any strength.  Took Stalingrad in May 1944, and am just waiting to grab enough VP to force an automatic decisive victory (which for the record requires pretty much every big city west of the Urals, arguably unrealistically so-- you need Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and everything west, but  also enough in the pile of Gorky, Saratov, Grozny, Kazan, etc. to win).

Anyway, again, while the game is long (though fast!), even as the Axis, it's not too terribly challenging on normal.  I'll try it on a higher difficulty for my next campaign, or simply restrict myself to the 1941 campaign to try to achieve major objectives then.

Question on the checkerboard defense. How did you get enough units to go 2-3 deep. Did you break down divisions into regiments? I dont have enough units to do this without breaking down units.

[rtb1017]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

I took it by sacrificing Leningrad. I came in from the north in the Summer of 42.

Looks like the infantry did the work here. What year did it fall and what difficulty?

[TulliusDetritus]

I'm currently playing a PBEM as Soviet (5th turn) and I think my opponent (SireChaos) will grab both Moscow and Leningrad Don't know why I'm so pessimistic... perhaps because I am an über NOOB [:D]

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: rtb1017

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

I took it by sacrificing Leningrad. I came in from the north in the Summer of 42.

Looks like the infantry did the work here. What year did it fall and what difficulty?

It fell in early summer of 42, My panzer did most of the work...for once [:D] There off getting refit after their abuse. The difficulty is normal, I'm not brave enough yet to try a higher one. I've seen others take Leningrad and Moscow versus the AI, it makes me feel so inadequate because I have yet to take Leningrad [:@]

[PeeDeeAitch]

I took Moscow (and Leningrad) in 1941 in my Normal GC.  In part I did this by burning the future for the present and several times resupplying the HQs (and this hurts transportation), but gave me near full movement in early August - this allowed me to do Bryansk/Vyazma/Rzhev like encirclements two months early.  The AI lost enough so that I could encircle the capital well before winter.  The payoff was taking both Leningrad and Moscow in 1941, the hurt was the losses in transportation (and winter was brutal), but it also meant that at normal I was able to break Soviet resistance in 1942 and win in early Summer 1943.
 
Note, this is at normal, 100/100 so that it was not as tough as could be.