Too many losses for air search?

[invernomuto]

Hi,
in my main PBEM game (I am playing the Allies), my opponent is approaching with his KB to Suva, one of my main bases in SOPAC.
In our last turn he lost 13 kates (12 A2A 1 OPS) in naval searching missions over Suva. I have about 250 fighters in Suva, 50% on CAP mission, 50% escort. Don't you find these losses a bit too high? He has about 200 fighters according to my recon, I have a Catalina squadron in Nadi (11 Catalina, 80% Naval search 20% rest) and I lost one (A2A) due to KB CAP. We are almost in september 1942 in our game and the Catalina A2A losses are almost equal of B-17 ones.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

Hi,
in my main PBEM game (I am playing the Allies), my opponent is approaching with his KB to Suva, one of my main bases in SOPAC.
In our last turn he lost 13 kates (12 A2A 1 OPS) in naval searching missions over Suva. I have about 250 fighters in Suva, 50% on CAP mission, 50% escort. Don't you find these losses a bit too high?

Wait till you have 400 Hellcats flying CAP... That's the reason why my carrier bombers are no longer flying naval search missions. Waste of good pilots. Float plane pilots are much less valuable...

Too high or not, but it's almost the same with japanese CAP and allied float planes.

[anarchyintheuk]

He had multiple Kate squadrons at least partially assigned to search. You probably only had the one PBY squadron set. Each search has its own chance for interception by cap.

[Jakerson]

Well you have to fine tune naval search mission ranges and directions in the way that they do not overlap with major enemy air bases to avoid losses.

Another way is setup naval search to fly very high altitude but this reduce chance of detecting ships it is safer to fly higher that lower altitude.

[brian800000]

I recently had 4 transport squadrons moving troops from a base, when the KB unexpectedly turned up in that hex. It was the slaughter of the innocents.

[LoBaron]

Concentrated CAP seems to be overpowered against recon/naval search, though more due to a concept that bugs hexfield games in general.

Dissimilar to reality the game treats every hex the same as far as chance/dice roll/AC spread purposes are concerned.
So whether a hex is a base hex or open ocean, it gets the same ammount of search planes assigned.

A couple of factors now increase the chance of a shot down search plane compared to reality:

- In case the player assigns a notable percentage of a large fleet to naval search a hex is covered by more than one, often
tenths of aircraft even on longer range searches and so increases the chance of a plane shot down.

- As far as I know its now possible to shoot down planes transiting a hex, so this adds to the carnage if the transiting hex is a base hex with CAP

- On carrier search missions the altitude usually has to be the same as strike altitude (except if the player assigns a whole squad to nav search only which is commonly considered a bad idea,
not sure if because of real facts or percieved lesser chance of a strike to hit the correct targets or percieved worse coordination) so an altitude where CAP has no issue to intercept.


I think that search planes being shot down at low altitude over CAP hexes is realistic. The problem is that the ammount of planes showing up on a specific hex is very much
up to the player underrating the search coverage so a high nav search percentage results in very high losses in case the percentage is set too high compared to the ammount of planes available.

As for the Catalinas, I would say 80% is a very high setting except for short time periods, mine seldom fly a higher rate than 60%, in case of secondary training missions even 50%, and
close to never fly at max range.

[HansBolter]

In my Ironman games against the AI I typically see reports of anywhere from 4-6 Mavis' shot down over Rangoon alone per 12 hour phase.

This equates to a loss rate of about 8-12 Mavis' per day. This happens day in and day out with little reprieve.

I keep wondering what kind of a build rate the AI must have for those damn things or if the reports are just greatly exaggerated pilot claims.

[invernomuto]

Thank for the answers. I still think that 13 Kates in a single day is a bit too much for naval search missions. They should spot and run away if they find enemy opposition. As for my Catilina, 80% Search - 20% rest is a temporary setting. Usually I set 60% AS - 40% rest or 50-50.
 

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

- As far as I know its now possible to shoot down planes transiting a hex, so this adds to the carnage if the transiting hex is a base hex with CAP

where did you get this from?

[crsutton]

Japanese planes seem to take much more losses in my campaign. A lot of these come from flak as well as CAP. I rarely use single engine Allied planes to search anywhere but at sea. The liberators, venturas, hudsons and such seem to not take too many losses. (Liberators never get shot down) I generally search at about 40% with these planes and if there is to be heavy CAP expected, set them to 12,000 feet or higher.

[Alpha77]

When search planes are shot down, they apear in the AA losses tab, or ? Or as OP losses ?

I have a feeling that search missions have too high OP losses (even if not at max range and a portion resting)

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

When search planes are shot down, they apear in the AA losses tab, or ? Or as OP losses ?

I have a feeling that search missions have too high OP losses (even if not at max range and a portion resting)

if shot down they appear either as A2A or flak (if shot down over the target). Otherwise they usually show up as ops.

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

When search planes are shot down, they apear in the AA losses tab, or ? Or as OP losses ?

I have a feeling that search missions have too high OP losses (even if not at max range and a portion resting)

AA losses. I would have to check saves to be sure, but I've probably seen 30 float planes lost in a single day to searching when allied CVs are in the area.

[Alpha77]

Allied search losses are also high btw. Don´t think there is so much difference between the sides, but more maybe a general problem. Later in war Allied losses will probably drop (if Allied player does a good job)....

However I play vs. the AI atm. so these losses are not severe for the Jap, as the AI get´s production bonus on most plane types anway...... I also managed to lessen my own losses, so it is not such a problem for me personally. Others may dissagree.