Army Group Antonescu

[Q-Ball]

I am lamenting the complete overloading of AGS, and just realized that the Axis starts with 4 Army Group HQs, not just 3 (AGN,AGC,AGS); Army Group Antonescu! (sp?)

Is it worth attaching the 3rd and 4th Romanian Armies to this HQ? Antonescu isn't a very good administrator, but at least AGS won't be as overweight. It costs a pile of APs, but I have those.

Thoughts?

[karonagames]

I have done it, but not played enough to see the long term benefit of it. Jon (pyledriver) swears by it, and he has captured Moscow on challenging mode, so it may well help offset the admin penalties etc.

[ComradeP]

I'd advise against it unless Army Group Antonescu is attached to OKH. The Romanian High Command isn't good, and neither is Antonescu, so I'd be more inclined to simply attach the Romanian armies you want out of AGS to OKH than to Army Group Antonescu, unless you get lucky and Antonescu's ratings improve.

Considering that it's essentially impossible to overload OKH, I'd prefer assigning HQ's to OKH so the Romanian corps and armies have at least 1 good HQ somewhere along the line over assigning them to a four tiered tree of mediocre HQ's (Romanian corps to high command).

[Klydon]

I have been looking at this as well and my current ideas are to detach any regular Rumanian infantry divisions in German infantry corps to the Army group and use them as occupation troops in the rear in the south. I will also stream line down some for Rumanian 3rd and 4th Army so their corps are not overloaded either and they get the cav and mountain troops as well. I do use the 3rd and 4th Army and try to clean up as many pockets as possible to give them as many victories as possible to improve their experience so they will improve somewhat. I don't generally expose them to front line combat however. The amount of troops needed for occupation is pretty big in the South given all the pop centers there and the fact you have to be concerned the Soviets could do an invasion anywhere along the coast. 

[Q-Ball]

I have pulled all Romanian Divisions from German Corps, because into 1942 with all the extra Heer infantry, just about every German Corps HQ is topped-off. This is even with a couple German Inf. Div. attached to Hungarian or Romanian Corps. Constantly scrambling for enough German HQs, and it seems like the crunch does not abate, as there are few in the reinforcement queue.

The Romanians have plenty, maybe even excess Corps HQ, so there isn't much of a need it seems to attach Romanians to German HQs.

I have also used Romanians for pocket clean-up to build morale. Actually, the Romanians aren't bad if given proper rest; I have several divisions with CVs of 5 or 6 (one even at 7!), which is where some of the depleted Heer divisions are anyway. I use them extensively on the front lines. (but also on garrison duty)

I am not getting anywhere with the Italians, though, they are hopeless. Just using them for Cannon Fodder. The only good thing about the Italians is that they have piles of Support units, particularly Artillery, so every combat has artillery support. The Romanians are much better.

[Arstavidios]

I've put Antonescu in OKH then assigned the Rumanian armies to it.
In 1942 I'm thinking about assigning some German divisions to the Rumanian corps to stiffen them up and possibly mix them with 11th army.
Possibly also assign 11th army to AGA to have a good army command. and make 3 mixed armies. My main effort is in the centre so Rumanian sector is less important.

[CarnageINC]

Well Q-ball, I must be missing something in my playing, my Romanians are quite unfit for anything but garrison duties and chasing partisans down.  I just don't have the luck with them rested or not.  I do have better luck with the Romanian Cav Corps and Mnt. Divisions they are the only ones worth using IMO.  As far as the Italians I don't have to much trouble with them as long as I keep their stacks 3 high.  I only use them as fire brigade though.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Well Q-ball, I must be missing something in my playing, my Romanians are quite unfit for anything but garrison duties and chasing partisans down.  I just don't have the luck with them rested or not.  I do have better luck with the Romanian Cav Corps and Mnt. Divisions they are the only ones worth using IMO.  As far as the Italians I don't have to much trouble with them as long as I keep their stacks 3 high.  I only use them as fire brigade though.

I think you have played more than I have so far, so my experience may be limited, and I haven't played the living yet, so that may change my mind....

But best use of Axis Minor Allies (Finns excepted), is an interesting thread topic by itself maybe.

For example, do others MIX Germans in with the Allies, or leave Allied armies alone?

What is the best use of specific units? Do you "steal" the mobile formations to run with German Panzers, or leave them with the Minor Allied Forces? How about the Cav?

RE: ROMANIANS:
The Romanian Cav is excellent for chasing partisans IMO, and not for much else.

Romanian Mtn. units are GOLD in the first Winter, but limited use elsewhere. But boy, are they needed in winter.

I am not saying Romanian Infantry are assault troops, but rested Rum Inf Divs have CVs of 5-6 for me, as good as a depleted German Inf Div. Maybe I have better luck, because I have alot of Romanian units with Morale at 65-ish, because I use them extensively to reduce pockets, giving them cheap victories. With fewer units to destroy against a human, this probably nets fewer results.

Big problem on Italians, other than low morale, is the Divisions are so small, only 6 Bns. That hurts. For whatever reason, they do get piles of support units.

[ComradeP]

For example, do others MIX Germans in with the Allies, or leave Allied armies alone?

Mix as in: in the same attack, then yes. Mix as in: the same HQ, not always.

What is the best use of specific units? Do you "steal" the mobile formations to run with German Panzers, or leave them with the Minor Allied Forces? How about the Cav?

Anything using a mechanized rating, including cavalry, gets assigned to Panzer corps. The minor Axis leader mechanized ratings are awful, and the units can be quite good when they have a good leader and good experience. Any motorized or cavalry unit can help the Axis war effort. I chase partisans around with security divisions and minor Axis, as well as SS motorized brigades if they're in the area.

Big problem on Italians, other than low morale, is the Divisions are so small, only 6 Bns. That hurts. For whatever reason, they do get piles of support units.

I'm currently considering whether to disband their support units and HQ's. Even though they withdraw, the developers told me it was OK that they can be disbanded. I'll assign the infantry to OKH and the mobile units to Panzer corps. The fact that the Italians thought binary divisions were a great idea is an annoyance I've learned to deal with by now through playing other wargames involving them.

[Q-Ball]

Interesting, and maybe we have to start a new thread on Axis Minors...


But what do you gain, Comrade, by disbanding the Italian Support Units and HQs? You can't re-use the equipment, can you?

Also, don't you find you run out of HQ space assigning all the Rum Cav to the Panzers?

[vinnie71]

Antonescu is basically there to take off the weight off other HQ's down south. I normally attach XI Romanian Corps which is basically a garrison force but remove its SUs. I'm always in two minds as to wheter I should attach the  German security command to it as well and whether I should detach the Romanian airforce from it and deploy it under LW command.
 
Re Axis minor allies:
 
The Romanians are numerous and have a large army with several good units. As said above the armoured and cavalry brigades/divisions are useful, normally as follow on forces behind the german schwerpunkt or on limited encirclements. I normally organise them in two corps so that all mobile units are concentrated.
 
The mountain corps is also an excellent unit and in my games, they are the ones that tend to bear the brunt of soviet attacks in '41. I normally try to assign the best general with initiative for them and give them decent AT SUs as well, since that is their only Achilles heel. As for the common Infantry divisions, they end up being glorified garrision troops that hold the line and garrison cities. Normally I organise one 'offensive' army with the mobile corps in it, and one 'defensive' army that brings up the rear. From what I gather the Romanian airforce can become pretty decent in the long term as well, though I haven't played far enough to confirm it.
 
The Hungarians appear at a later stage in numbers and aren't that bad. The best unit is the Armoured Division which takes ages to fill up, but can be used as a weak Panzer grenadier unit. The bulk of their infantry is released in '42 and basically fulfills the same role as the Rumanians. Again I haven't played far enough to see them through so much action. Ironically their most useful units are the security troops which can easily garrison even the largest cities and in '44 can upgrade to light divisions.
 
The Italians are a mixed lot. I normally find that the original units tend to become pretty decent. Their greatest assets though are two: General Messe, who is pretty decent and the airforce they send there. Lately I have been using them and the Hungarians in covering my incursion in Crimea, and they have done very well in air superiority missions. Again I haven't played far enough to see the ability of the rest of the army, but my guess is the best units will be the Alpini divisions that come in '42.
 
As for the Finnish, they are in a class of their own and basically fight their own war. They are good though they are not numerous, but are excellently supported by SUs. They also have good generals which is a rarity amongst the allies.

[ComradeP]

But what do you gain, Comrade, by disbanding the Italian Support Units and HQs? You can't re-use the equipment, can you?

Also, don't you find you run out of HQ space assigning all the Rum Cav to the Panzers?

You gain some vehicles, and every vehicle helps as the Axis. The Italians can, of course, use their own equipment so the equipment of the support units you disband can end up in Italian divisions. Considering how low their replacements are, it might even be able to keep them largely up to strength.

I guess I will run out of command space at some point, I'll have to check how many divisions there are to assign and how many HQ's I have. Currently everything's still manageable. The situation greatly "improves" when the motorized divisions withdraw and you only get a few PzG units in return, which significantly decreases Panzer Army HQ stress. The amount of Panzer divisions remains fairly stable, also because large parts of the SS convert to Panzer divisions (although that also means they withdraw and arrive again a couple of times).

The cavalry divisions usually have good MP's and also take less of a MP penalty when moving into enemy held terrain, so they can be as good as your other mobile units when those start running out of gas after a few turns.

One thing to keep in mind is that minor Axis unit qualifications can be a bit misleading. Many of their "brigades" are almost division sized.