Here come the Rebels! (Canoe v. Q-Ball)

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Nemo, I'm keeping that possibility in mind, though I would prefer to hit eastern Sumatra.  If I did that successfully, it would neutralize Palembang and Singapore and make it difficult for Brad to extra his India troops.

I won't try to begin a support/discuss on Nemo's idea if you're not interested, but I've been thinking about it, looking at the map, and I think it's a VERY interesting proposal given the force dispersions you're currently facing. Instead of dinking around the edges at places like Wake and Norfolk I, it drives a stake into his heart, and losing Bangkok would be salt in the wound, a big pressure bandage right across his aorta. Georgetown has a potentially large airfiled and port, and you can control the western approaches at sea at fairly low-cost with the forces you have/have saved, let alone what you're about to get.

I know that Sumatra has been your El Dorado since the start of the game, and that's fine, you might want to experiment with it. But if your goal is to win the war and game fast, I think you should really break Nemo's suggestion down in terms of economic impact, strictures on resource flows overland, the effect on the entire Malaysian penninsula, the funneling of necessary oil and fuel through a new submarine-vulnerable tunnel out of southern Sumatra once Singapore is stoppered, not to mention the overall strategic panic you would inject into your opponent.

I look at the map right now as a very long, tall (Japanese) stemmed rose. An eleven division head, huge and beautiful, and a thin, stick-like stem reaching due south all the way to Batavia in an unbroken line. Georgetown lets you break the stem in half, with the northern stub trying to desperately support that huge blossom up at Bombay as it begins to wither.

Tounge firmly in cheek, you might call Nemo's proposal Step 1 in a Grinder Recovery 12-Step program. You ought to seriously consider it. He's right that you could cut years off of the war.

[Cribtop]

The Georgetown proposal is indeed interesting. From an operational perspective the obvious quandary is when will CR have the CV strength to ensure his SLoC in the face of a "kitchen sink" response from Japan? Avoiding a Yubari/Fatr Ocean of Blood style defeat must always be job one. Of course, waiting too long to ensure total sea supremacy will mean the Japanese blossom evacs from India, invalidating the whole point. Timing would be key.

[Canoerebel]

Bullwinkle, I'd welcome strategic thoughts. I promise to read and consider, but I'll also be a "tough sell."

The Malaya Peninsula has some advantages in that Georgetown is almost certainly lightly guarded. An invasion there would also sever India from the rest of Japan in a major way.

There are strategic disadvantages - Georgetown is within the Japanese perimeter. I'd be coming inside big bases like Sabang and Port Blair. The likelihood of achieving surprise is pretty small. And, as Cribtop notes, securing the LOC would be a tough proposition indeed.

Sumatra may not be quite as attractive a target, and is likely to be more heavily guarded, but it is probably easier to achieve surprise. It will also be more feasible to secure the LOC assuming the invasion takes place later in '43 when I have more carriers.

There's also the fact that I've had lots of SigInt about Sumatra, little or none about Malaya, and that my troops are prepped for Sumatran targets (mainly Padang, Benkoelen, Lahat, and Oosthaven). Changing plans has lots of ripple effects that can't be taken lightly.

An invasion can't take place any sooner than three months, by my estimate. I'll be continually reevaluating things to see if Sumatra still seems like a viable target. If not, I'll be looking for other opportunities and Malaya is one candidate.

The operation vs. Wake is much more than nibbling at the edges. It is actually part of an elaborate maskirovka (I get that term from reading Tom Clancy novels, but I've seen others use it in the forums). I want to use Wake and the big build up in the Aleutians to create the appearance of an Allied concentration in CenPac/NoPac. Then, in early or mid '43, I'll mount a massive feint on the Kuriles. If successful in drawing the attention of the KB, that would help the Allies in striking Sumatra (or some other southern target).

There's plenty of more thought that goes into a plan this elaborate, and many factors that would be tedious to delve into, but that's why I say I'll be a "hard sell" to change.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

The Georgetown proposal is indeed interesting. From an operational perspective the obvious quandary is when will CR have the CV strength to ensure his SLoC in the face of a "kitchen sink" response from Japan? Avoiding a Yubari/Fatr Ocean of Blood style defeat must always be job one. Of course, waiting too long to ensure total sea supremacy will mean the Japanese blossom evacs from India, invalidating the whole point. Timing would be key.

I think the selection of Georgetown is not an accident on Nemo's part.

Allied invasion and second-wave forces would need to be perhaps even micro-divided into very small chunks both to facilitate rapid-unload-and-move-out at Georgetown, and to leverage the game's target-assignment code for Japanese LBA and CV attacks. Low mix xAKLs in force to build a very quick, large supply dump, and a massive investment of enginneers from D-Day +1 to get a large, sustainable airbase up and running. CR would lose merchants by the score. But he has them. With the third-generation fighters, DBs, and attack bombers he will be getting in the next 90 days he could hold Georgetown from amphibious response, and an overland response would be slow and resource-starved given the "blossom" up north.

A question on this op which would need to be addressed IMO is the status/future of Ceylon. Would it need to be re-taken first? Few can best me in my love for Colombo's yards, dumps, and airfield, but I tend to think that Ceylon, in Nemo's proposal, could be made a strategic liability for Brad's Japanese posiiton due to Georgetown's north-south resupply straddle for Singapore. Ceylon in this case might be where Brad would have to retreat some or most of the Indian expeditionary force, and then what to do with those divisions? If CR can wrest sea control in that part of the map away, Brad has little choice but to make them walk through the un-railed and un-roaded jungles of Burma to get them back to battery in Indo-China and somewhat useable, the task of the better part of 1943 at minimum. By then CR could have new US Army divisions spreading south toward Saigon from Bangkok, or even farther east along the coast, further interdicting the resource and oil/fuel convoys which can't make useful landfall at Singapore any longer due to the penninsula stopper at Georgetown/Bangkok.

[Canoerebel]

10/15/42

Bombay: IJA 1st Division arrived at Bombay in a weakened state (bombardment showed AV of about 150). Now we'll see if Brad pulls his troops out of Bombay towards Poona. The Allies will follow as best they can.

Noumea: Kiwi troops begin loading at Wellington; Aussie transports should depart Melbourne tomorrow or the following day. No sign of enemy activity.

Points: I'll post the points in a separate thread in just a few minutes per a request. I should note that Karachi isn't a key to IJ auto victory due to points, but rather to the fact that it's the key port through which Allied reinforcements and supplies pour. Between June and September, I think the Allies sent 2,000 AV + from Aden to Karachi, plus more than 700k supply. Had Brad taken Karachi and prevented that from occuring, he likely couldn't bagged Bombay and it's troops and most of the remaining Allied troops in India. I have no doubt Japan would have achieved auto victory had Karachi fallen sometime between April and July.

[Canoerebel]

Tally as of 10/15/42: IJA 33k; Allies 10k. So auto victory spread is 7k - up from 4k several months ago.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been bombarding there every day for three months. I know exactly what's there, but I don't know their supply.

Oddly enough, I only have one unit bombard. I quickly discovered that one unit (it happens to be an Aussie brigade) is far, far more effective that having my whole stack of 2700 AV bombard. Why? I don't know. Just one of AE's oddities.

Anyhow, I'm still uncertain about launching a deliberate attack.

I've seen others post that the best way is to send minor bombing missions over, and when the flak stops, they're dry.

I don't think that works like it did in WITP. I was down to zero supply for some time in Singapore, yet my flak was still working vs the Japanese bombers. Of course it started to thin as disrupted units stayed disrupted, but my flak worked until the final battle.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Vettim, LOL!!!!

Canoerebel,
Just one thing... It might be time to have a think about breaking the entire front. Rather than just pursuing his forces and nipping at their heels tactically could you do a much deeper amphibious invasion BEHIND the line they are streaming south to create? That would turn a retreat into a rout.

E.g A Georgetown landing would likely be very lightly opposed and destabilise the entire Japanese defensive position he is planning for 1943/44. It also wouldn't be all that much more hazardous than a landing in Burma or South-Eastern India and if properly conducted at this stage in the war you could move up to Bangkok, cut off his egress from Burma and force him to air-evac his force from there into Vietnam, this should gain you victory 18 months to 2 years earlier than would otherwise be the case - if you press him hard enough.

It is somewhat risky but in the long term hitting a soft spot far behind the lines speeds things up so much overall losses are much reduced. It is the old Montgomery/British Army of 1944 trade-off between casualty rates and total casualties till cessation of hostilities. Monty had to accept a low casualty rate even if that meant a longer war and greater casualties overall. You could choose a higher short-term rate and a quicker war.

Problem for me was lack of invasion type transport in the East until 1943, and then not much. Allies just don't have much for offensives both in the East and Pacific until later in 43. Do you guys pull invasions using xAP and xAKs? I am reluctant to try due to the very slow and limited unloading.

[Chickenboy]

As far as Georgetown is concerned, it's one (of many) daring gambits for the Allied player.  All are foolhardy, IMO, unless the precise position of KB is continuously known.  Some players do keep KB (or mKB) at Singapore for quite a bit of the time.  Wouldn't that just ruin your day?...

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: crsutton


I don't think that works like it did in WITP. I was down to zero supply for some time in Singapore, yet my flak was still working vs the Japanese bombers. Of course it started to thin as disrupted units stayed disrupted, but my flak worked until the final battle.

Perhaps the units were working through their last organic supply while base supply was at zero?

[Canoerebel]

There is a hiatus in the game as I am snowed in at home and don't have the game installed on my home computer.  Six inches of snow and some freezing rain is enough to immobilize us since we don't have snow plows, salt, chains, and other things that help Yankees avoid going crazy during their Glacier Season.  We'll be mowing the grass in a little more than two months, while you Yanks will be admiring your pasty white arms and legs.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There is a hiatus in the game as I am snowed in at home and don't have the game installed on my home computer.  Six inches of snow and some freezing rain is enough to immobilize us since we don't have snow plows, salt, chains, and other things that help Yankees avoid going crazy during their Glacier Season.  We'll be mowing the grass in a little more than two months, while you Yanks will be admiring your pasty white arms and legs.

It's been snowing here without a stop for about 30 hours now, and will continue until tonight. Nobody was late to work, the schools are open, the stores have food (there was no run on diapers), the airport is operating at 100% capacity, and the power grid is up. It's just January.

In two months everybody in MN will be in Mexico drinking tequila. So, [insert Bronx Cheer.] [:)]

[JohnDillworth]

We'll be mowing the grass in a little more than two months, while you Yanks will be admiring your pasty white arms and legs.

Not me, this Yankee will be down in Florida doing the Disney thing and maybe some spring training. Looking like it's going to be a rough one tomorrow. Had to move 20 inches of the crap 2 weeks ago and looks like another 20 on the way. I do, however, have the game installed on my home machine. I don't think the powers that be would take kindly to me having it on my work machine. Especially after one of my projects got eviscerated by the city council for 8 hours yesterday.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There is a hiatus in the game as I am snowed in at home and don't have the game installed on my home computer.  Six inches of snow and some freezing rain is enough to immobilize us since we don't have snow plows, salt, chains, and other things that help Yankees avoid going crazy during their Glacier Season.  We'll be mowing the grass in a little more than two months, while you Yanks will be admiring your pasty white arms and legs.

My regard to your fire ants. When will they emerge from their slumber? [:'(]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There is a hiatus in the game as I am snowed in at home and don't have the game installed on my home computer.  Six inches of snow and some freezing rain is enough to immobilize us since we don't have snow plows, salt, chains, and other things that help Yankees avoid going crazy during their Glacier Season.  We'll be mowing the grass in a little more than two months, while you Yanks will be admiring your pasty white arms and legs.

It's been snowing here without a stop for about 30 hours now, and will continue until tonight. Nobody was late to work, the schools are open, the stores have food (there was no run on diapers), the airport is operating at 100% capacity, and the power grid is up. It's just January.

In two months everybody in MN will be in Mexico drinking tequila. So, [insert Bronx Cheer.] [:)]

Like our resident rubber-nosed swamp donkey says...it's just winter. No CHUDs or canabals around here. Excepting Green Bay Packer fans, of course.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There is a hiatus in the game as I am snowed in at home and don't have the game installed on my home computer.  Six inches of snow and some freezing rain is enough to immobilize us since we don't have snow plows, salt, chains, and other things that help Yankees avoid going crazy during their Glacier Season.  We'll be mowing the grass in a little more than two months, while you Yanks will be admiring your pasty white arms and legs.

My regard to your fire ants. When will they emerge from their slumber? [:'(]

It occurs to me that most things that can eat you, poison you, take up residence in your bowels, or invade your house reside in the warmer climes of our fair planet.

I moved to The Great White North when termites tried to eat my bedroom. A moose may stomp you to death, but at least he fights fair (i.e. above ground.)

[crsutton]

Ok, a little filler for everyone during the down time. It was not snowing in Washington DC yesterday so for my birthday my wife took me down to see the Lincoln Cottage located on the grounds of the old soldiers home in North East DC. Nice house. After the loss of his son Lincoln accepted the use of the house as a summer home to help his family (wife) escape the sorrow and pressure of the white house. They spent three summers during the war using the house. Lincoln rode the three miles to the white house every morning-usually unescorted. The first national cementary for Union soldiers was located on the grounds as well as a hospital and was active until Arlington came into use late in the war. The cemetary is located very near the house and the family got to watch an average of 40 funerals a day. Nowdays the VA hospital and the US soldiers home are located on the grounds. Some fine old buildings and houses. I have a cool photo but forgot to change it to 1 megapixle so it is too large to post here.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There is a hiatus in the game as I am snowed in at home and don't have the game installed on my home computer.  Six inches of snow and some freezing rain is enough to immobilize us since we don't have snow plows, salt, chains, and other things that help Yankees avoid going crazy during their Glacier Season.  We'll be mowing the grass in a little more than two months, while you Yanks will be admiring your pasty white arms and legs.

My regard to your fire ants. When will they emerge from their slumber? [:'(]

It occurs to me that most things that can eat you, poison you, take up residence in your bowels, or invade your house reside in the warmer climes of our fair planet.

I moved to The Great White North when termites tried to eat my bedroom. A moose may stomp you to death, but at least he fights fair (i.e. above ground.)

True but termites can eventually be overcome. A moose asks no quarter and gives no quarter. So if you take one on, you better be prepared to finish the job. You have to look out for the relatives as well, including the dread Llama.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



My regard to your fire ants. When will they emerge from their slumber? [:'(]

It occurs to me that most things that can eat you, poison you, take up residence in your bowels, or invade your house reside in the warmer climes of our fair planet.

I moved to The Great White North when termites tried to eat my bedroom. A moose may stomp you to death, but at least he fights fair (i.e. above ground.)

True but termites can eventually be overcome. A moose asks no quarter and gives no quarter. So if you take one on, you better be prepared to finish the job. You have to look out for the relatives as well, including the dread Llama.

As anyone can tell you, Llamas have a long beak for drinking nectar. They are also equipped with fins for swimming. If you are in the water and see a llama, you should shout, "Cuidado! Cuidado, hay llamas!" Ole! [:D]

[Canoerebel]

It is true that the llama is a quadruped with a beak for eating honey, but did you know that the Norwegian blue is known of kippin' on it back?

You're thinking, "It's not pinin', it's passed on. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. This is a late parrot!"

I'm thinkin' that cheddar isn't England's favorite cheese.

Fetch hither the camelbar!