Encirclement Tips

[FredSanford3]

Lots of depth with regard to the 'pending' friendly (green) ZOC hexes helps. If you only have a single row of pending hexes, due to nearby enemy units, then that's probably too thin.

[Zovs]

All answers directly from the manual in normal print.

I don't know exactly at what point the ownership of the hex changes?

Hexes are either friendly (controlled by the phasing player), enemy (controlled by the non-phasing player), or pending friendly, which are hexes that have been taken during the current turn and will switch ownership at the end of the phasing players turn.

Is it the same for the Soviets and for the Germans?

Yes.

So if I capture a hex, it becomes pending until the start of my next move

All combat units convert the hex they enter as they move into a pending friendly hex. Division and Corps sized combat units convert the hex they enter, and any unoccupied adjacent hexes in their ZOC unless the unoccupied hex is also in the ZOC of an enemy combat unit.

Another example: suppose that I leave one hex between the encircling units; if the Soviets move a unit from outside the pocket between two of my units to a hex that is pending for the Germans, does it immediately become a Soviet-owned hex and the pocketed units can run right through it? If so, how many mp will they pay since the hex is in 2 German ZOCs and one Soviet ZOC, but the hex is Soviet-owned?

See above. But essentially per your example yes to the pocket question on hex control. For the MP costs this varies, it depends on the unit type, morale and its' base MP calculations.

Essentially if you have say a morale of 50 it would cost 9 MP to enter an enemy hex (except for cavalry which is one less or 8 MP). If you have a 80 morale unit it would only cost 7 MP (if cavalry it would cost 6). If the hex was friendly controlled at the start of your turn then it would be one less or in the above examples, 8 (7) and 6 (5).

[Commanderski]

Another example: suppose that I leave one hex between the encircling units; if the Soviets move a unit from outside the pocket between two of my units to a hex that is pending for the Germans, does it immediately become a Soviet-owned hex and the pocketed units can run right through it? If so, how many mp will they pay since the hex is in 2 German ZOCs and one Soviet ZOC, but the hex is Soviet-owned?

I think it depends on the scenario and the amount of enemy troops in the area. I'm playing Operation Typhoon and encircled over 30 divisions and about a half dozen tank Brigades near Vyazma. I left every other hex open on the Eastern side. After the turn I saw they were definitely cut off and isolated. I thought I would be smart and wait another turn before I attacked to finish them off and was also wondering why they weren't trying to break out. The next turn I got my answer. Several relief columns came through my open hexes and encircled most of the 4th Panzer Group, one really masive, and I spent the next 4 turns trying to save them, which I eventually did. The AI is really tough in the mud.

While farther South I have about a half dozen divisions cut off but there weren't any large forces in the area and I was able to eliminate them without any attempts of a break in or out.

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

Another example: suppose that I leave one hex between the encircling units; if the Soviets move a unit from outside the pocket between two of my units to a hex that is pending for the Germans, does it immediately become a Soviet-owned hex and the pocketed units can run right through it? If so, how many mp will they pay since the hex is in 2 German ZOCs and one Soviet ZOC, but the hex is Soviet-owned?

See above. But essentially per your example yes to the pocket question on hex control. For the MP costs this varies, it depends on the unit type, morale and its' base MP calculations.

This looks like a contradiction. According to the manual you quoted, the pending hex becomes owned by the phasing player at the end of his turn, so in my example, the hex (assuming it is not in an enemy ZOC) would become mine at the end of my turn. Then when the |soviet unit moves into it on his turn, it becomes pending for him, but will not revert to Soviet control until the end of turn, so it could not help enemy units to escape until the next Soviet turn. So contrary to your response quoted here, the hex would NOT revert to the enemy until the end of his turn, and therefore pocketed enemy units should not be able to run through it during the enemy turn without paying the high cost for entering and leaving an enemy-owned hex. [&:]

Henri

[Zovs]

No contradiction, remember all units can move 1 hex no matter what. Once a unit is in a hex it gains ownership, then if the other units have enough MP (from either side of a pocket) then can slip into/out of that hex, finally when that Soviet player ends his turn their is no longer any pocket and supply is not hampered as bad as it could have been.

Think of it this way, a division (or Soviet Corps) gains control of the hex it occupies and any in it's ZOC, not occupied by enemy units. Now with that said go back to post 18 and look at the gap, one hex not controlled and one hex controlled. If the Soviet RD moves one hex west (probably all the MP he would have) and if a Soviet unit could move into that town hex on the east side of the Berezina then no pocket has been formed by the Axis.

[bairdlander2]

But wouldnt those hexes become "pending zoc's" for SU?Your saying if they moved into the Axis zoc?

[Zovs]

If a unit moves into a hex it owns it regardless of hex ownership previously. A hex occupied is owned by the occupier. Empty hexes are a different story.

[bairdlander2]

In the example you mean from my screenshot post 18,the SU unit 1-1 west of Brezina river,I dont think that unit has mp's to move 1 hex east as the 2 axis units are exerting zoc movement costs on that hex?

[Zovs]

Again, all units can move 1 hex. From the manual:

Units that have not moved can always move at least one hex, even if it costs more than their MPs. To make this minimum move, the unit must be the only unit selected.

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

If a unit moves into a hex it owns it regardless of hex ownership previously. A hex occupied is owned by the occupier. Empty hexes are a different story.

Previously you quoted the manual: "All combat units convert the hex they enter as they move into a PENDING friendly hex". And you said that a pending friendly hex only converts to ownership at the end of the phasing player move. Now you are saying that it becomes friendly to the phasing player IMMEDIATELY. Now i am more confused than ever...[&:]

To go back to my previous question: during an encirclement, two German infantry units leave one hex empty between them, none of the hexes in question being in a Soviet ZOC. From the manual quotation, I understand that this hex becomes German-owned at the end of the German move. During the Soviet move,a soviet unit from outside the pocket moves into the empty hex. According to the manual you quoted, this hex becomes a PENDING Soviet hex during the Soviet move, and therefore remains a German-owned hex for the duration of the Soviet move.

If this is true, the presence of the Soviet unit in no way helps Soviet units to escape during the same move.So a Soviet unit trying to escape fromthe pocket would have to pay the movement cost of entering a German-owned hex in a German ZOC, pay the same for entering the German-owned hex between the 2 German units, pay the same cost a third time to move out of the pocket into a German ZOC, then finally pay the cost of leaving an enemy ZOC.Clearly no early Soviet units would have the MPs to escape a pocket this way, so what am I missing? [&:][&:]

I suspect that what happens is that the hexes in question only become German-owned at the end of the SOVIET move, which contradicts the manual statement that it changes ownership at the end of the phasing player's move.

Henri

[bairdlander2]

So this pocket I created in my current game is useless as the SU unit will move into the hex with the x?

[ComradeP]

"Useless" as in: supply will be restored, yes, but the units in it will probably be doomed after your next turn as they won't be going anywhere even though their supply will be restored. The Soviets can also move that motorized division in the bottom of the screenshot two hexes to the west and the NKVD regiment that is currently isolated 1 hex to the south to, combined with the Tank division moving to the position you marked, isolate your mobile forces.

[ComradeP]

I suspect that what happens is that the hexes in question only become German-owned at the end of the SOVIET move, which contradicts the manual statement that it changes ownership at the end of the phasing player's move.

No, it changes ownership at the end of the phasing player's move. You pay an MP cost as if it's an enemy hex for the duration of your turn if you turn it into a "pending" friendly hex. Non-combat units can move in, but they pay (at least) an entering enemy hex MP cost ("at least" as in: if the enemy has ZOC over the hex, the MP cost will be even higher).

[bairdlander2]

Looks like the pocket held,wasnt doing this is previous GC,but this time Im playing on easy,

[heliodorus04]

Here is where I *THINK* the confusion between DLazov and Henri lies:

A hex you move into is owned by you as soon as you move into it.  It doesn't require you to wait till the end of the turn.

So the rifle division that would move 1 hex east-ward toward the river (refer to your Post 18 screen shot) will own the hex it moves in to.
Any Soviet unit that gets across the Berezina river into the town hex would own that immediately as well.  Thus, the encirclement would be gone.  NOTE, though, that while technically the escaping unit would be free of encirclement, it STILL would have suffered resupply problems between the END of your Axis turn and the start of the Soviet player's movement.  That's great, and reduces its combat power and movement allowance, and makes it basically unable to attack for a while.  But if you were to attack it immediately on your next turn, it could retreat/route.

The terminology associated with "conversion" and "pending friendly" applies to hexes that are within the zone of control of YOUR units AND not in the zone of control of enemy units.  Those 'convert' as you move, but they aren't fully owned until after the end of the turn.

If an Axis unit and a Soviet unit have ZOCs in an empty hex, control will never change unless one of the units move away (and take their ZOC with them out of the hex), OR a unit actually moves INTO the unoccupied hex.

[randallw]

That tank division may not have had the MPs to make that move anyway, heading out of a ZOC into another one.

[ComradeP]

Units can always move at least one hex, even if they technically wouldn't have the MP's to move into the hex they're moving in as a first move (in which case they'll have 0 MP's left after moving 1 hex).

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: henri51

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

If a unit moves into a hex it owns it regardless of hex ownership previously. A hex occupied is owned by the occupier. Empty hexes are a different story.

Previously you quoted the manual: "All combat units convert the hex they enter as they move into a PENDING friendly hex". And you said that a pending friendly hex only converts to ownership at the end of the phasing player move. Now you are saying that it becomes friendly to the phasing player IMMEDIATELY. Now i am more confused than ever...[&:]

To go back to my previous question: during an encirclement, two German infantry units leave one hex empty between them, none of the hexes in question being in a Soviet ZOC. From the manual quotation, I understand that this hex becomes German-owned at the end of the German move. During the Soviet move,a soviet unit from outside the pocket moves into the empty hex. According to the manual you quoted, this hex becomes a PENDING Soviet hex during the Soviet move, and therefore remains a German-owned hex for the duration of the Soviet move.

If this is true, the presence of the Soviet unit in no way helps Soviet units to escape during the same move.So a Soviet unit trying to escape fromthe pocket would have to pay the movement cost of entering a German-owned hex in a German ZOC, pay the same for entering the German-owned hex between the 2 German units, pay the same cost a third time to move out of the pocket into a German ZOC, then finally pay the cost of leaving an enemy ZOC.Clearly no early Soviet units would have the MPs to escape a pocket this way, so what am I missing? [&:][&:]

I suspect that what happens is that the hexes in question only become German-owned at the end of the SOVIET move, which contradicts the manual statement that it changes ownership at the end of the phasing player's move.

Henri

Pending means pending. German sweeps by empty hex, it becomes pending TO GERMANS. It becomes friendly to the Germans at the end of the German phase. Then Russian moves into hex. Now it becomes pending to RUSSIANS. Before the Russian moved, Russians in the pocket were isolated; after the Russian moved they were not isolated. At the end of the Russian phase, the Germans see a relieved pocket with no isolated Russians.

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: pompack

Pending means pending. German sweeps by empty hex, it becomes pending TO GERMANS. It becomes friendly to the Germans at the end of the German phase. Then Russian moves into hex. Now it becomes pending to RUSSIANS. Before the Russian moved, Russians in the pocket were isolated; after the Russian moved they were not isolated. At the end of the Russian phase, the Germans see a relieved pocket with no isolated Russians.

No, what the German sees is a pocket with no Russians inside!!![:@]

You are saying that the hex in question only becomes Soviet-owned at the END of the Soviet move, AFTER the Soviet units in the pocket have moved. So how can the soviet units in the pocket escape the pocket BEFORE the pocket is opened? Some of the posters above have stated that the hex occupied by a Soviet unit IMMEDIATELY becomes soviet-owned, but this is not what the manual says.

What would make this more coherent would be that a hex occupied by a unit that stops moving IMMEDIATELY becomes owned by the phasing side, but this is not what the manual says (unless I missed something).[&:][&:]

Henri

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: henri51

ORIGINAL: pompack

Pending means pending. German sweeps by empty hex, it becomes pending TO GERMANS. It becomes friendly to the Germans at the end of the German phase. Then Russian moves into hex. Now it becomes pending to RUSSIANS. Before the Russian moved, Russians in the pocket were isolated; after the Russian moved they were not isolated. At the end of the Russian phase, the Germans see a relieved pocket with no isolated Russians.

No, what the German sees is a pocket with no Russians inside!!![:@]

You are saying that the hex in question only becomes Soviet-owned at the END of the Soviet move, AFTER the Soviet units in the pocket have moved. So how can the soviet units in the pocket escape the pocket BEFORE the pocket is opened? Some of the posters above have stated that the hex occupied by a Soviet unit IMMEDIATELY becomes soviet-owned, but this is not what the manual says.

What would make this more coherent would be that a hex occupied by a unit that stops moving IMMEDIATELY becomes owned by the phasing side, but this is not what the manual says (unless I missed something).[&:][&:]

Henri

Try again: pending means the hex is friendly to you, hostile to your opponent but expensive to move into (in MP). When you own it, it is still friendly to you, hostile to your opponent, but no longer requires extra MP to enter.