Building Collapse Has Immobilized All My Tanks

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:53 am

In the classic scenerio "Into the Meat Grinder" i have lost (to immobilization)all of my tanks that approached bombed out buildings (great depiction of Stalingrad by the way). Has anyone else experienced this in other scenerios. Can be a real pitfall if you are not aware of it!!!!!!!

kao16 · Post by **kao16** » Mon Dec 04, 2000 8:04 am

Play WB's U2R I've had tanks and half track immobilse themselves on many occasions - my problem is that it happens in hexes that only have part buildings on them where I am expecting that I can avoid the building. But no, they get immobilised

So, you're not alone

It's something we just have to live with

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Mon Dec 04, 2000 8:30 am

Exactly!!!!!!! Thought i could scoot by the buidling.........but no. Anyway, that is part of the enjoyment.

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Mon Dec 04, 2000 9:08 pm

Only way to really make sure is to move the cursor over the hex before moving into it to check if its a building hex or not. Most hexes are obvious, but in some cases its hard to tell if its clear ground or a building hex.. also if a house has been shelled to rough terrain or still exists in form of a tank trap.

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Mon Dec 04, 2000 10:27 pm

I guess the rule of thumb is that if any part of a building, however small that part may be, occupies a portion of a hex, the building (if collapsed or partially collapsed) may immobilize/trap tracked vehicles.

In my current Stalingrad scenerio i was foolish enough to do this on three different occassions.....not too bright. Could have used the "take back move" but didnt. Anyway, with a number of T-34s roaming around the factory ruins it is not easy without any friendly tank support.

BlitzSS · Post by **BlitzSS** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 12:51 am

The 'Take Back Move' option will only work if there wasn't any spoting, Op fire, or disablement. Once you have an occurance that button won't help you anymore, but it was noble of you not to even try it.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 1:08 am

Just as in real combat conditions, tanks and other vehicles should move with caution through populated areas or buildings, slowly, carefully. Running hell bent for leather can be costly.

I strongly recommend that when moving armor or other vehicles that you use Fredde's suggestion. Move one hex at a time. Also before moving into a hex, check it to see if it has a piece of a building in it.

This is done by simply running the cursor over the hex and seeing what is there in the text description of that hex.

I would also use caution when moving around hedges, walls and bocage. They too, can cripple your armor.

While it may slow down your gaming a bit, it does recreate an accurate feel of moving through these areas in a real tank.

To click on one hex and then click on another 20 hexes away with no regard for the terrain in between can be disastrous.

And may I add, do not move through these areas with CC (Command Control) turned on. When you do that, most likely, if you have vehicles in that formation, you are going to have some results that will not please you

Wild Bill

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

WW2'er · Post by **WW2'er** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 1:38 am

WB,

In regards to the hedges and stone walls/fences, I believe I read that engineers could breech these the same way they remove mines....i.e. place them next to the mined hex and have them facing it. Is this true? I tried it this weekend and it didn't work on a stone fence. Suggestions?

Thanks,
WW2'er

Originally posted by Wild Bill:

I would also use caution when moving around hedges, walls and bocage. They too, can cripple your armor.

Wild Bill

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 1:59 am

FWIW, I saw a tank fall into a basement during my tanking days. Well, actully I didn't see it happen, but I passed bye a few minutes later. We were doing a road march out of Vilseck Germany (1978, I think) in winter, and a tank slid on the ice going around a corner. It slid straight through the front of a house and went right down to the basement. Now that's what I call being disabled by the terrain.

For gaming purposes, I imagine it would be quite difficult to determine where all the basements and weakened walls are in a city that's been bombarded. I can imagine driving on what you think is a stret and crashing through some weakened floor beams that are covered with rubble.

------------------
Target, Cease Fire !

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 2:05 am

Originally posted by WW2'er:
WB,

In regards to the hedges and stone walls/fences, I believe I read that engineers could breech these the same way they remove mines....i.e. place them next to the mined hex and have them facing it. Is this true? I tried it this weekend and it didn't work on a stone fence. Suggestions?

Thanks,
WW2'er

I was wondering also if the hedge busting tanks were included in the game. I don't think I saw them in the encyclopedia. Perhaps their ommission reflects the condition of too much chrome, not enough space? I might of been fun to try them out, though.

Lou

[This message has been edited by Lou (edited December 04, 2000).]

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 1:22 pm

Very funny, can imagine the owner of the house coming home to find a house without front and a tank in the basement

Wish there would be a warning when you attempted to go into such a terrain.. a small confirmation window popping up with a yes or no option. Most of the times running into building with tanks is a mistake based on clicking on the wrong hex or bad pathfinding.

I also wonder if there really should be a 99.5% chance (number taken from my experience, in all my SPWAW gaming i only once had a halftrack crash into a building and not becoming immobilized in the process) to immobilize the tank even when going over a wooden building. By moving slowly and facing the turret backwards to protect the gun, a tank should be able to tip some buildings over without damaging the tracks. Some tanks here are 60 ton giants.

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 2:07 pm

Saw a Vulcan crippled by barbed wire. The wire had wrapped around the oil seal on a wheel.

When driving a support truck over desert terrian, if you're the first one through, no problems. If the tracks have been before you they chew up the sand and you'll sink, even with 4 wheel drive on.

On an APC the grit and sand will clog up the turret ring on a 50 cal. The only way to shoot in a direction in which the gun isn't pointing is to get on top of the track.

Breakdowns and snafu's were not uncommon.

------------------

Your mine is a terrible thing to lose.
Pack Rat

GrinningDwarf · Post by **GrinningDwarf** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 8:13 pm

Originally posted by Lou:
I was wondering also if the hedge busting tanks were included in the game. I don't think I saw them in the encyclopedia. Perhaps their ommission reflects the condition of too much chrome, not enough space? I might of been fun to try them out, though.[This message has been edited by Lou (edited December 04, 2000).]

I've seen dozer tanks in some scenarios that busted through hedgerows, but I havn't seen any of the Sherman mods with steel beams mounted on the bow. If it's in the encyclopedia, though, there's either a scenario for it or you can build a scenario that features it for yourself. If you do build one, be sure to share it with the rest of us!

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 8:47 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WW2'er:
WB,

In regards to the hedges and stone walls/fences, I believe I read that engineers could breech these the same way they remove mines....i.e. place them next to the mined hex and have them facing it. Is this true? I tried it this weekend and it didn't work on a stone fence. Suggestions?

Thanks,
WW2'er

Should work, also using the 'z' key with a cs-tank using he ammo will clear these, sometimes it takes 3-4 shots though.

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 8:50 pm

Ahh, the Culins device!! If there is a slot in the oob, and the icon data base, I'll try to make an icon, we'll see!!

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 9:53 pm

I'd love to add that one in, Warhorse. We need it!...WB

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

MECH ENGINEER · Post by **MECH ENGINEER** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 10:55 pm

I've just been off playing mad scientist/engineer, I thought possibly that engineers could breech a hedgerow with explosives(satchel charges). They can take out the stone walls but not hedgerows. This is good realism, no way could an engineer squad carry enough explosives, less it was ADM. So, I guess we will be needing Cullin devices after all.

------------------
"When do we get our flamethrowers, Top?"

MECH ENGINEER · Post by **MECH ENGINEER** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 11:07 pm

One more thing, about these building taking out tanks. Remember, in sustained combat the crews might not have oportunity to perform maintenance on their vehicles. Could lead to some breakdowns. This year, one of our AVLB's was moving to the complex obstacle site, nothing but tank trail, front and rear. The idler bearing seizes and it ends up sitting in the middle of the tank trail for two days.

------------------
"When do we get our flamethrowers, Top?"

kao16 · Post by **kao16** » Wed Dec 06, 2000 8:10 am

These buildings and stone fences immobilising tanks aren't all bad.

A couple of times in U2R immobilised tanks have been all that prevented the destruction of my on board artillery and slow moving vehicles from suddenly appearing German reinforcements.

Flashfyre · Post by **Flashfyre** » Fri Dec 08, 2000 8:52 am

The real problem, as I see it, is that the AI doesn't ignore buildings and walls/hedgerows when computing a path for vehicles to travel. A possible solution would be to flag these terrain types as N/A, for purposes of travel, unless the player specifically selects that terrain for movement. In other words, if you pick a hex 12 away from the unit, and a potential path exits through a building/hedgrow/wall hex, but not as the terminus (hex selected by player), the AI would ignore those specific terrain hexes. However, if you select a building or wall hex to move into, then it allows it, and any consequences are your own.
The only reasons I see to purposefully drive into a building or wall would be to set up an ambush or blocking situation, or to bypass a known/suspected enemy ambush.