Exhaustion Issues?

[Marshal Villars]

Haha. Sorry to post on another "item".

I am playing "Race for Bastogne" as the Germans. I have these infantry units which are supposed to get to the two bridges by bypassing enemy resistance on the ridge. According to the scenario description they are supposed to take the bridges by "the end of the day."

Okay. Fine. So the Nazis were often overly optimistic. I have no problem with this.

But I do have issues with the "exhaustion" which marching over land without enemy opposition inflicts on infantry.

I believe I marched my men for about 5-6 KILOMETERS, bypassing opposition. The northern prong made it to the town of Marnach when they got tired and even on "no rest settings" simply refused to go any further--assuming a "rest" status.

I tell you. These guys are wimps. At the age of 43, I hike these distances on weekends. No problem. With a back pack (but not with 60 pounds of equipment I admit--but 20).

Is anyone in the army out there who knows if a unit given a critical mission and told not to quit marching -- up at 6 am, would make it over 6 kilometers of land and then just quit? Maybe I am not up on the rigours of warfare.

Thoughts on this? Actually what was accomplished with my southern prong was even more disappointing. Some units made it nary two kilometers by the end of the day in spite of facing minimal/no opposition and being on "minimum" rest.

I have no problem with units which are too exhausted ignoring my orders and refusing to march. In fact, I love this mechanic. But I am worried that the units get exhausted too quickly. But my grandfather, who was in the German army has repeatedly told me of the massive, massive marches they used to make. I mean stunning things which my brain cannot even fathom. And to see these guys quit after 2-4 kilometers kind of bums me out.

NOW!!!! THIS DOES NOT MEAN THIS IS NOT THE FINEST OPERATIONAL/TACTICAL SIMULATION EVER!!! AND WITH BFTB PANTHER GAMES HAS ONCE AGAIN DRAMATICALLY UPPED THE ANTE FOR ANYONE WISHING TO ENTER THE MARKET AND STAND TOE TO TOE WITH THEM FOR ANY KIND OF REALISM.

Shown below: PART of the northern prong decides to get moving again. Note that I only set them to "Fastest" speed at the very end of the day in desperation to get some of the units to the bridge before midnight. Most of the day they had been on "Normal".

[Huib]

There was a discussion about this somewhere already. I couldn't find it so quickly. But you are right. The fatigue parameters are quite far off the mark compared with real life (both getting fatigued too easily and taking too long to recover from it). I'm waiting for this to be corrected. In the midst of these digital soldiers I would be superman right now.
The good thing is that Arjuna would look at it.

--edit: I did see on your screenprint that you chose "fastest" which means about 9km/h which would be pretty exhausting in this terrain.

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: Huib
--edit: I did see on your screenprint that you chose "fastest" which means about 9km/h ......

Which works out at 40 seconds per 100 meters. Probably carrying 30 kilo and a rifle this would be exhausting after 5k

Suggest changing the speed to "Normal" and then see if they are exhausted after 5k.

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[Marshal Villars]

Oh. The speed was normal at the beginning of the day. I only upped to max speed once night fell in desperation to reach the objective before midnight (the time I wanted it).

[Huib]

Yes it is already proven that units fatigue too fast.... just can't find that other thread anymore. I did a test letting some German soldiers do the same (combatless) route as I did in 2007 or 2008 near Höfen. The difference was me not being tired after 15 km or so and the soldiers terribly fatigued after 4 or 5 km.

[oldspec4]

Believe there is a recent similar thread in The War Room re: Dealing w/ fatigue.

Arjuna said he was going to look at the fatigue issue ASAP.

[Arjuna]

Yes I'll be looking at fatigue rates soon, once I resolve the formation lockup and exit issues.

BTW please remember that the weather conditions were atrocious. It was freezing, snowing and with snow on the ground. These too have an effect on progress and fatigue levels. However, I acknowledge that the rates need tweaking.

[Pergite!]

Weather as Arjuna mentioned is of course the prime factor. It is the same thing in COTA where the more aggressive commander easily can send his FJ:s into near collapse if they are pushed to hard under the scorching Cretan sun.

Also do not forget that what happens in the simulation is combat, and all advances the units do will reflect this. Its not about marching 30km a day in peaceful conditions, its about a slow nervous march in combat formations.

I like the harshness of reality that the units indeed get exhausted. It forces you to plan ahead and really emphasise the value of reserves. I do however agree that some tweaking in this apartment would be welcomed.

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: Pergite!

I like the harshness of reality that the units indeed get exhausted. It forces you to plan ahead and really emphasise the value of reserves. I do however agree that some tweaking in this apartment would be welcomed.

I agree with this statement, and that's why I never threw up much of a fuss about it during playtesting.

All of the accounts I read describe how miserable the troops were in these conditions. The Germans especially, with their meager iron rations and shaky morale. After 4 days of fighting, none of the US front line divisions were in any shape to continue fighting. The German 277th Volksgrenadier was essentially written off by the time 12SS reached Rocherath on the 18th. Much of this was due to casualties, and I'm sure that some of these casualties were related to battle fatigue.

However some divisions like the 560th Volksgrenadier and 5th FJ performed forced marches remarkably well. But I doubt there was a whole lot of night marches at full trot through enemy territory.

With 'real time' the player has to manage an aspect of the game that is usually otherwise abstracted in turn based games. I think that takes a little getting used to.[;)]

[Marshal Villars]

I will ask my German grandfather tomorrow what they managed to do in a 3 day forced march he has talked about since ever I can remember. Fully loaded. It was during the occupation of Austria. I will also ask about the conditions of the roads, etc., they used. I do know it was over "mountainous" terrain.

Interestngly, he participated in the occuation of the Sudetenland (crossed the border before they were supposed to even be there officially ... to seize a strategic cross roads), Austria, France (fighting around Arras and then again in the south before the cease fire), and in the opening 40 days of Barbarossa, before he bought a one way ticket home during the drive on Leningrad in Army Group North--just outside of a town called Opochka--with a major arm wound which cost him the use of his arm for the rest of his life because of poor medical treatment (after the wound, he didn't even see a doctor for a week, and bacteria ate his joint away).

[Pergite!]

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars

I will ask my German grandfather tomorrow what they managed to do in a 3 day forced march he has talked about since ever I can remember. Fully loaded. It was during the occupation of Austria. I will also ask about the conditions of the roads, etc., they used. I do know it was over "mountainous" terrain.

A military rule of thumb says that it takes an hour to march 4km on road and 2km cross country. During a day (12hrs) you will cover 30km, more if you force march. This is however in ideal conditions. (During the Falklands the elite British forces managed 1km/h by day, and only 500m/h at night, although heavily encumbered)


Its however not just about walking. The logistics required for larger formations also requires a lot of effort and time. You need to feed the troops and resupply them with everything from water to spare socks. Carts or trucks must reach mid and end points and in turn demand additional forces to secure them. On arrival or longer breaks defensive trenches and even latrines have to be dug. The force then need to get a proper rest to be able to continue in the same manner for days to come. Pushing it any harder than this would certainly cause injuries that would slow you down. Add the threat and strain of combat to all this and I assure you that the exhaustion will mount up.

I do not doubt that is possible to push units harder and further (been there done that) but its a emergency measure and not common practice. To summarize, it should not be these exceptions that this simulation should be based on.

[johndoesecond]

I too agree on the last Pergite's and Simovitch's posts.

The fatigue rates are frustrating, but that's the point: they should be!
And I always thought this issue has been exaggerated.

I'm also wondering how would they behave in other scenarios with more favorable weather and terrain (COTA- or HTTR-like), being also better trained and fit. It should make all the difference, as it should!

Indeed, it is much more than just walking with some back pack. And beyond all the logistics, terrible weather, mud and cold, imagine also your're being shot at.

I believe the fire contact with enemy is a mayor fatiguing factor, as it should be, and we're not talking only stamina here, but the general psyicho-physicial fatigue and stress.

You can call it being a wimp, but imagine what it means to be in a close fire encounter for, say, just 30 minutes. You can close your eyes and imagine, or you can read the accounts from old and new wars.

It is one thing to walk in formation undisturbed (and maybe without having seen fight for days or months, as the German troops starting in that scenario), and it is completely another thing if you need to pass by enemy units, ducking down, firing and get fired at, sneaking, being bombarded, etc.

Not only all this is very fatiguing, but you wouldn't recover from that sorts of fatigue very quickly as well (after being through that and maybe having seen some 10-20 of your company co-militants die, a "good" 6 hours sleep would not do it, I'm afraid. I know some of these things are modelled through morale, but parts are also specifically fatigue).


Now, having seen where your II.304 BN is and how scattered the subordinates are, they have surely seen combat and encountered quite stiff resistance around Mamach from one AT company and 1 or 2 infantry company (together that's about 300-400 men in a close encounter!, again just close your eyes and imagine), plus they were likely fired at from Munshausen/Op der Haard area further south, plus they have quite likely been bombarded throughout the day; then you have to add the logistics, mud, below zero temperature, need for coordination, bypassing, etc. etc. etc.

Just ask yourself, where would you be and how would you feel under that circumstances? You can think of it as you want, but it's DEFINITLY not walking with some back pack at your back we're talking about here. To quote: "It ain't the same fucking ball park. It ain't the same league. It ain't even the same fucking sport."

As I said, without attrition, they fare quite well: try to order them to go somewhere, even far away, but without having them have a fire contact, and you'll see


So to conclude: yes, I agree it's ok the double-check fatigue rates, but I want it to be a reality check.

We shouldn't behave too much as a kind of a virtual armchair Pattons, slapping our silicon soldiers for being cowards and wimps. It's always easy to underestimate other peoples' pain, sufferings, fears and fatigue when you're comfortably lolled in your couch, having just consumed your abundant Sunday's dinner.

Cheers.