Radar in the new patch still maybe buggy

[vaned74]

Out of curiousity I pulled up the Downfall scenario to test ground based radar detect ranges.

I put 4 Japanese BFs with 6 Ta-Chi 14 (best available) radar sets each in Moppo. I then ran several days of fighter sweeps from Okinawa to Moppo and Saishu Tu (an island just SW of Korea having only a infantry brigade).

Here are the raid detection results:

Moppo - 11 nm, 36 nm, 33, 15, 45, 33, 41, 40, 19, 37, 28, 22
Saishu Tu (no radar) - 11, 41, 40, 12, 37, 32, 13, 30, 36, 31, 43, 46


I then upgraded the Japanese Ta-Chi 14 radar stats to the same as the CPS-1 radar (350 range, etc) and ran the same test:

Moppo - 43 nm, 31, 26, 46, 36, 48, 35, 43
Saishu Tu - 43, 13, 20, 29, 16, 20, 46, 27, 48

These were P47N sweeps at 15,000 feet.

No raid ever said detected by radar.

[PaxMondo]

However, I am getting detections at 40 - 80 miles now.  Definitely a HUGE improvement.

[vaned74]

Are you getting these routinely? Or maybe it is not working with fighter sweeps? I have run multiple tests vs targets w/o radar and with radar and see no change in the detection patterns or even beyond what they used to be.

Are you getting a report that says raid detected by radar?

[vaned74]

Ok - so I tested again - it appears that bomber raids seem to be detected at good ranges - for Japan out to 160 nm; for the Allies 160-200 nm in late 1945. However, sweeps by fighters alone appear to not be detected by radar well. I will run some more tests later.

[vaned74]

It appears to be different how sweeps are handled vs ordinary raids and are extremely difficult to detect even for massed radar concentrations with excellent sets.

Sweep results in Downfall scenario:

vs Moppo (24 CPS-1 equiv Jap radars) - P47s detected sweeping at 21, 14, 15, 34, 43, 25, 48, 29, 29, 120 nm. Only once detected far enough out to make a difference in CAP.
vs Oita (no radar) - P47 detected sweeping at 47,11, 49, 29, 46, 21, 32 nm

Jap sweep versus Okinawa - lots of SCR-270 and some CPS-1 radars, Oscars at 20,000 ft - detected at 46 nm, 28, 40, 27 nm (*even the Japanese sweeps stand to score good results against Allied late war radar)

Bombers on the other hand -
G4M Bettys vs Okinawa - detected at 200, 200, 200 nm
B24 Liberators vs Oita (no radar) - detected at 40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40
B29 vs Nagasaki (radar) - 200, 160, 160, 200, 120, 200

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

However, I am getting detections at 40 - 80 miles now.  Definitely a HUGE improvement.

Well, I am not that sure it's a huge improvement in detection. [&:]
I regularly get radar contact such as those below, at 20 - 27 NM, which gives my defense only about 5 - 10 minutes' TTT. Pity. And this is Ta-Chi 7/Type 2 radar mixture.

Afternoon Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 38



Allied aircraft
Beaufort V x 4
Beaufort VIII x 18
Mitchell II x 9
B-17F Fortress x 6
B-25C Mitchell x 48
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 10


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort V: 1 destroyed
Beaufort VIII: 2 destroyed
Mitchell II: 1 destroyed
B-25C Mitchell: 1 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
13 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled



Airbase hits 23
Airbase supply hits 9
Runway hits 154

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 7000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x Beaufort VIII bombing from 7000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x Beaufort VIII bombing from 7000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x Mitchell II bombing from 7000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x Beaufort V bombing from 7000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 7000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 7000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 7000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 7000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 7000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
5th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 34 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 16000 , scrambling fighters to 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes

[castor troy]

radar has been working fine for me since the last official patch. It can fail sometimes but this is how it should be. Pre patch, it failed always (land based radar that is). Also my and my opponent´s sweeps are spotted, you also may note this at the start of the replay when it says "raid detected by radar".

[LoBaron]

Ok this is just an observation but what do you expect?

Japanese radar was notoriousely unreliable and hard to decipher.
And all examples are Japanese.

I´d like to see an example with a good allied (US or British) radar before I jump conclusions.

[crsutton]

Well Viperpol and I have thrown this back and forth a few time. My contention to him is that nobody should expect Japanese radar to be that good at any time. But I am no expert there nor do I know if the devs factored that into the game. Anyone know much about Japanese radar? I doubt that any Japanese electronics could have been that good considering the Japanese industrial base-lack of supplies-technicians, limits of education and such.

I have no complaints about my Allied radar in the game. Seems like my inteceptors are getting up into the air.

[PaxMondo]

Well, if you look at the device percentages for the IJ radar, it seems to be WAD.  I'll defer to others to decide if the percentages are correct. 
 
Allied radar has pretty good percentages by mid-war such that if you have two functioning units you stand +80% chance of detecting a raid (w/o factoring in weather which I have no idea if it impacts radar in game, although it was definitely a factor IRL.)  Those odds seem pretty historically accurate to me for the Allies.
 
As noted by crsutton, it would seem that IJ radar would be less effective and the percentages are significantly lower.  Plus, IJ gets far fewer units that can get radar and fewer replacements.
 
Plane size makes a difference in detection and fighter sweeps being harder to spot passes my "makes sense" test.  Although vaned74's data suggests that they might be a little too hard to spot.  Again, I'll have to defer to an expert there.  I'm too lazy to calculate the wave propogation expansion of centimeter radar at 80 miles ... but there are good reasons why you want to move to shorter wavelengths and resolution (smallest detectable size) is the main one.
 
I'm with castor on this: pretty routinely with the latest patch I get "detected by radar" and detection ranges greater than 40 miles when I have ground radar on the defense.  Bottom line is: my CAP is improves tremendously overall with ground radar.  More planes responding quicker, base damage much lower, attacker losses higher.

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Ok this is just an observation but what do you expect?

Japanese radar was notoriousely unreliable and hard to decipher.
And all examples are Japanese.

I´d like to see an example with a good allied (US or British) radar before I jump conclusions.

Sure, this is just an observation, and not a complain or whatever.
But.. what I expect?
I expect that Japanese radar, inferior as it is when compared to American, would detect enemy faster than Chinese spotters -- separated ground unit alone in the Jungle -- giving earlier warning than "eyesighting" giving longer time to target periods and more reaction time.
That's an example from today's PBEM. Similar observations are reported on a regular basis. Port Moresby is equipped with 2/2 Ta-Chi 7/type 2 radars while that Chinese unit... there's definitely not a single piece of radar. Should I equal the japanese radar with simple observation of the Chinese soldiers?

Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes


Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 15


No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
15 x P-38G Lightning sweeping at 29000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 72nd Chinese Corps, at 76,51 , near Tuyun

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 14
G4M1 Betty x 20
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 21



No Japanese losses

[Sardaukar]

Actually, at least before 1941, Chinese had rudimentary, but decently effective early warning network based on "Mk 1 eyeball" aka human observers. It allowed the hodge-podge of Chinese fighters to inflict some serious hurt to unescorted Japanese bombers and was one of the factors leading to developement of Zero as escort fighter. Not really related to possible problem with Japanese radar, though.

[darbycmcd]

Plus you have to read all the lines, not just the ones that make you angry....

Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Morning Air attack on 72nd Chinese Corps, at 76,51 , near Tuyun

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

You see why there is such a big difference in the time to target right?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Ok this is just an observation but what do you expect?

Japanese radar was notoriousely unreliable and hard to decipher.
And all examples are Japanese.

I´d like to see an example with a good allied (US or British) radar before I jump conclusions.

Sure, this is just an observation, and not a complain or whatever.
But.. what I expect?
I expect that Japanese radar, inferior as it is when compared to American, would detect enemy faster than Chinese spotters -- separated ground unit alone in the Jungle -- giving earlier warning than "eyesighting" giving longer time to target periods and more reaction time.
That's an example from today's PBEM. Similar observations are reported on a regular basis. Port Moresby is equipped with 2/2 Ta-Chi 7/type 2 radars while that Chinese unit... there's definitely not a single piece of radar. Should I equal the japanese radar with simple observation of the Chinese soldiers?

Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes


Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 15


No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
15 x P-38G Lightning sweeping at 29000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 72nd Chinese Corps, at 76,51 , near Tuyun

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 14
G4M1 Betty x 20
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 21



No Japanese losses

Well, I think the point is that your radar just like anything else takes a die roll. If it fails then there is no working radar that turn and you would not have any results other than visual spotting-no better than the Chinese. And there is a greater chance that Japanese radar will fail the roll than Allied

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Ok this is just an observation but what do you expect?

Japanese radar was notoriousely unreliable and hard to decipher.
And all examples are Japanese.

I´d like to see an example with a good allied (US or British) radar before I jump conclusions.

Sure, this is just an observation, and not a complain or whatever.
But.. what I expect?
I expect that Japanese radar, inferior as it is when compared to American, would detect enemy faster than Chinese spotters -- separated ground unit alone in the Jungle -- giving earlier warning than "eyesighting" giving longer time to target periods and more reaction time.
That's an example from today's PBEM. Similar observations are reported on a regular basis. Port Moresby is equipped with 2/2 Ta-Chi 7/type 2 radars while that Chinese unit... there's definitely not a single piece of radar. Should I equal the japanese radar with simple observation of the Chinese soldiers?

Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes


Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 15


No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
15 x P-38G Lightning sweeping at 29000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 72nd Chinese Corps, at 76,51 , near Tuyun

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 14
G4M1 Betty x 20
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 21



No Japanese losses

[8|][8|][8|]

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Ok this is just an observation but what do you expect?

Japanese radar was notoriousely unreliable and hard to decipher.
And all examples are Japanese.

I´d like to see an example with a good allied (US or British) radar before I jump conclusions.

Sure, this is just an observation, and not a complain or whatever.
But.. what I expect?
I expect that Japanese radar, inferior as it is when compared to American, would detect enemy faster than Chinese spotters -- separated ground unit alone in the Jungle -- giving earlier warning than "eyesighting" giving longer time to target periods and more reaction time.
That's an example from today's PBEM. Similar observations are reported on a regular basis. Port Moresby is equipped with 2/2 Ta-Chi 7/type 2 radars while that Chinese unit... there's definitely not a single piece of radar. Should I equal the japanese radar with simple observation of the Chinese soldiers?

Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes


Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 15


No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
15 x P-38G Lightning sweeping at 29000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 72nd Chinese Corps, at 76,51 , near Tuyun

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 14
G4M1 Betty x 20
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 21



No Japanese losses

[8|][8|][8|]

Actually the chinese spotter network was extrememyl effective. In some cases more so than a single RADAR set. Consider the accuracy of observers over a 1000 or 2000 sq/mi area noting the direction composition and altitude of a raid that lumbers over miles and miles of spotters strategically stationed for maximum coverage and equipped with communications devices to call in sightings. It is one of the reasons the AVG was so effective early in the war.

Also, RADAR detections can be spotty(no pun intended). There are many factors that go into detection ranges, not the least of which is the ALTITUDE your opponent sets for his raids and operator EXP. We programmed for the possibility of an operator "Fumble" so it is possible that RADAR Actually has a detrimental effect. It was anything but a proven science...

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: TheElf


... We programmed for the possibility of an operator "Fumble" so it is possible that RADAR Actually has a detrimental effect. It was anything but a proven science...

Wow. This is really good ... as long as it happens to my opponent!

Thanks for the insight.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: viberpol
I expect that Japanese radar, inferior as it is when compared to American, would detect enemy faster than Chinese spotters -- separated ground unit alone in the Jungle -- giving earlier warning than "eyesighting" giving longer time to target periods and more reaction time.

You expect too much then.

The Japanese had problems to get a "simple" airborne radio working with a reliability that justified the increased weight
of the fighter aircraft.
In fact the Japanese never used radio equipment in air warfare on a scale that it was implemented into the doctrine.

Japanese radar - which is a bit more complex than a radio, both in producing the data and the correct interpretation of the data -
was a highly unreliable experimental device. This applied to the Allies as well on a lesser scale.
It did not work in most instances and when it worked there still had to be operators with some experience drawing the right conclusions
from what they saw.

The average Chinese spotter was able to detect, ID, and give an estimate of the course and time on target of an incoming raid
in a few seconds, where a Japanese radar operator was probably still deciding whether its worth to further investigate another
set of fuzzy dots which could mean anything from migrating birds to a system failure, if he noticed the signal return at all.

Radar was a (THE) weapon of the Allies. Even the Luftwaffe was not able to compete, even though their radar systems where
much more advanced than the Japanese.

Don´t forget that the Allies had one big advantage on that technology in ´41 and later: The Battle of Britain. 2 Years of hard won experience
with an experimental set and the knowledge that this device probably saved them a much harder war.
The Axis powers had nothing in comparision except small test sites.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


Don´t forget that the Allies had one big advantage on that technology in ´41 and later: The Battle of Britain. 2 Years of hard won experience
with an experimental set and the knowledge that this device probably saved them a much harder war.
The Axis powers had nothing in comparision except small test sites.

LoBaron,

I agree with you, but for very much different reasons. I don't think it had anything to do with size of test sites or anything like that. As you say: "...the knowledge that this device probably saved them a much harder war..." The Allies believed in it. The IJ did not. I really believe it is that simple. The Allies beleived in it after BoB and then sunk [huge and vast] resources into it to develop it. IJ never applied that much focus ... too many of them believed that equipment like the Yamato was going to stem the tide. Since the Allies had vast resources to apply, they did not have to put all of their eggs into one basket. IJ did, and chose (IMHO) the wrong basket. Would it have changed the outcome? Not likely. Extended the war? Likely. (Think good radar and the Enola Gay does not complete her mission ....)

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


Don´t forget that the Allies had one big advantage on that technology in ´41 and later: The Battle of Britain. 2 Years of hard won experience
with an experimental set and the knowledge that this device probably saved them a much harder war.
The Axis powers had nothing in comparision except small test sites.

LoBaron,

I agree with you, but for very much different reasons. I don't think it had anything to do with size of test sites or anything like that. As you say: "...the knowledge that this device probably saved them a much harder war..." The Allies believed in it. The IJ did not. I really believe it is that simple. The Allies beleived in it after BoB and then sunk [huge and vast] resources into it to develop it. IJ never applied that much focus ... too many of them believed that equipment like the Yamato was going to stem the tide. Since the Allies had vast resources to apply, they did not have to put all of their eggs into one basket. IJ did, and chose (IMHO) the wrong basket. Would it have changed the outcome? Not likely. Extended the war? Likely. (Think good radar and the Enola Gay does not complete her mission ....)

flak didn´t even open up on the A-bomb bombers as far as I know (or is it only a myth) so why should have radar made any difference here. Arguable if fighters would have sent up against lonely or a coule of bombers at high alt.