Less or no MGs in German vehicles

[Mox]

I was wondering looking at estabs of both forces why do german vehicles have less or even no MGs mounted.

Example:
Hannomag - SdKfz 251/1 have no weapon at all - in real it had 2 MGs (34 or 42 model) mounted.
allied M3A1s all have MGs present (50 or 30 model).

Next example:
Panthers and PzKfw IV have only 1 MG - in real Panthers had 2, Mark IVs had 2-3
allied Shermans all have 3 MGs present.

[Arjuna]

I just checked in the Estab Editor and it shows that a Panter G does have 2 MG34s; a Sherman 76 does have 1 50 cal and 2 30 cal MGs; Mk IV J has 2 MGs. But you are correct re the Hanomag 251/1 not having a MG and that is an omission. There two different versions of M3 halftracks. One has no machine guns while the other does have two.

Richard,

Your thoughs on the Hanomag not having a MG.

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
Richard,

Your thoughs on the Hanomag not having a MG.

Looks like an oversight from way back. The 250/1 and 251/1 should both have an MG 42.

[Mox]

Ok, thank you, I had probably overlooked something regarding german tanks.

[Mox]

I checked the sources and found missing MG 42s (or 34s):
SdKfz 251/3 (1 MG),
SdKfz 251/7 (1 MG),
SdKfz 251/16 (1 MG),
SdKfz 251/17 (with obligatory 2 MGs)

Also as you noticed 251/1 (1 * MG 34)
SdKfz 251/3 (1 * MG 34)
SdKfz 251/7 - Ammo Carrier -> this one have wrong number - should be named Sdkfz 251/6 - Ammo Carrier and also have 1*MG 34

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: Mox

I checked the sources and found missing MG 42s (or 34s):
SdKfz 251/3 (1 MG),
SdKfz 251/7 (1 MG),
SdKfz 251/16 (1 MG),
SdKfz 251/17 (with obligatory 2 MGs)

Also as you noticed 251/1 (1 * MG 34)
SdKfz 251/3 (1 * MG 34)
SdKfz 251/7 - Ammo Carrier -> this one have wrong number - should be named Sdkfz 251/6 - Ammo Carrier and also have 1*MG 34

OK we will get these added before the official patch. I think it's too late for the next beta patch which is already in Matrix's hands.

[Fred98]

OK we will get these added before the official patch.

I think it's too late for the next beta patch which is already in Matrix's hands.

?????

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: Mox

I checked the sources and found missing MG 42s (or 34s):

We are only using MG 42's as being more likely the gun used in mid-late 1944.

SdKfz 251/17 (with obligatory 2 MGs)

I'm not adding an MG to the 250's or 251's that already have a gun mount. If these even had MG's they were probably rear-facing and you shouldn't be able to fire both effectively.

SdKfz 251/7 - Ammo Carrier -> this one have wrong number - should be named Sdkfz 251/6 - Ammo Carrier and also have 1*MG 34

Actually it's the Sdkfz 250/7 that was mislabeled and now renamed to SdKfz 252 - Ammo Carrier.

We added MG 42's to all German SdKfz 251's and 250's that do not already have gun mounts, except for the 8 cm mortar carrier and the flamethrower versions which had a forward firing MG mount.

[retired08]

The SPW 251/1 for example had one LMG assigned to the SPW that could be mounted either at the front or at the rear on a swivel mount. The PzGren. section could mount one of its two LMG in one of the unoccupied mounts. I just took a look at one of the Pz.Gren.Kp from Pz.Gren.Rgt 901 Pz.Lehr on 16.12.44 and 1.Kp had 16xSPw and 24 MG in the Kp, 2.KP 20xSPW 26 LMG, 3.KP 18xSPW and 21xLMG. As you can see there is a shortage of LMG's in each company. I suspect that the Pz.Gren.Kp in Pz.Gren.Rgt.901 were based on K.St.N.1114c(gp)(fG)(1.7.1944). There should be a total of 18 LMG just with the Pz.Gren.Sections and another 12 just for the SPW, note 251/2 and 251/9 do not have a LMG only the 251/1 and 251/3 have the LMG assigned to the SPW.

[final_drive]

The lack of vehicle mounted MGs in the SPW is of course a mistake which sadly had't been noticed before.
 
Richard,
Could I ask you not to rename the Sdkfz 250/7 to SdKfz 252? Indeed, the SdKfz 252 was an ammunition carrier, but it was an early-war vehicle used by the Sturmartillerie. In the le.Aufkl.Kp.(gp) there were two versions of the SdKfz 250/7: one with mortar and one without, the one without being used as ammo-carrier. Note that the mortar carrier didn't carry a forward-firing MG either (neither in the leSPW, nor in mSPW).

[final_drive]

I suspect that the Pz.Gren.Kp in Pz.Gren.Rgt.901 were based on K.St.N.1114c(gp)(fG)(1.7.1944).

That's correct, although IIRC we added some extra Estabs specifically for Pz.Lehr's Pz.Gren.companies in the Ardennes. Would have to look up on that.

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: final_drive

The lack of vehicle mounted MGs in the SPW is of course a mistake which sadly had't been noticed before.

Richard,
Could I ask you not to rename the Sdkfz 250/7 to SdKfz 252? Indeed, the SdKfz 252 was an ammunition carrier, but it was an early-war vehicle used by the Sturmartillerie. In the le.Aufkl.Kp.(gp) there were two versions of the SdKfz 250/7: one with mortar and one without, the one without being used as ammo-carrier. Note that the mortar carrier didn't carry a forward-firing MG either (neither in the leSPW, nor in mSPW).

FD - will do, thanks for the input. I probably should have deferred this to you in the first place.[;)]

@ Dave & Andrew... I hope these very minor details do not hold up the public beta. I will get these edits to Dave for the next go around.

[Arjuna]

The public beta is out now Richard. I agree we add these in the next round.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Mox

Also as you noticed 251/1 (1 * MG 34)
SdKfz 251/3 (1 * MG 34)
SdKfz 251/7 - Ammo Carrier -> this one have wrong number - should be named Sdkfz 251/6 - Ammo Carrier and also have 1*MG 34

ORIGINAL: final_drive

Richard,
Could I ask you not to rename the Sdkfz 250/7 to SdKfz 252? Indeed, the SdKfz 252 was an ammunition carrier, but it was an early-war vehicle used by the Sturmartillerie. In the le.Aufkl.Kp.(gp) there were two versions of the SdKfz 250/7: one with mortar and one without, the one without being used as ammo-carrier. Note that the mortar carrier didn't carry a forward-firing MG either (neither in the leSPW, nor in mSPW).

The Sd.Kfz. 250/7 had 2 variants: 250/7 Ausführung A, which carried a 8-cm Mortar "34" and only 12 mortar rounds, as the 250 was a light SPW with pretty limited space, and a 250/7 Ausführung B, which served as ammunition carrier. The B version could carry 66 rounds for the mortar and did not have a MG, the A version was equipped with a MG 34.
Sd.Kfz. 251 models (medium SPW) offered more space, so - for example - the 251/2 (with 8cm mortar) provided enough space for a crew of 8 men, 66 mortar rounds, plus a MG with ~2000 rounds.

In turn, the 251/7 was a SPW designed/equipped for engineers (Pioniere..., 2 top-mounts to carry 1 ramp on top of each side armor, that could be used to bridge small creeks/ditches or trenches). It was equipped with 2 MGs with a total of 4800 rounds, a Panzerbüchse 39 (AT-rifle) with 40 rounds, plus 10 Tellerminen (AT-Mines).