War Reports from the Eastern Front: Carnage vs Redmarkus

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I don't think Carnage is gonna like it down south when he gets the turn. An interesting AAR got even more interesting. [:D]

Ah...don't tease me so!

[Flaviusx]

Meh. His response was too linear, Klydon. I actually think it opens up some opportunities for Carnage, because he committed more units than necessary to achieve the basic result.

[CarnageINC]

SENDING OUT TO ALL AGS COMMANDS

[CarnageINC]

Here is my plan of escape if possible. Wow, some excitement in the game...WOOT! I was getting to lax in my offensive against Red, lesson learned!

[Ketza]

The ebb and flow of war.

[Flaviusx]

Carnage, if you handle this right, you may actually be able to bag quite a few units along the Sea of Azov. But watch out for the ports on the coast.

[CarnageINC]

All I can say is thank the gods of war I airdropped fuel to my farthest units. Note they should have enough movement points to extract themselves....so I hope [8D].

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Carnage, if you handle this right, you may actually be able to bag quite a few units along the Sea of Azov. But watch out for the ports on the coast.

That would be sweet, but I just want to save the 2 unit tucked in closest to his armies. All that experience wasted if I don't manage to get them.

[2ndACR]

 I hate when that happens. LOL

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Meh. His response was too linear, Klydon. I actually think it opens up some opportunities for Carnage, because he committed more units than necessary to achieve the basic result.

Oh I absolutely agree with you, but this is one of those deals where it was going to be priceless to see Carnage's initial reaction when he got the game turn. He had no idea it was coming at all given what has been going on with this game so far, so the shock value had to be pretty good. [:D]

[PeeDeeAitch]

You have a lot of movement in those divisions, and once you link up that presents a lot of possibilities (that air-drop was a good thing).

[raizer]

this is a good aar because red is kind of half stepping his way thru the scenario, just kinda moving stuff around, la di da,  and carnage is chomping at the bit, going full out,  pulling out all the stops. Carnage is doing great and has gotten far and I dont mean to poke fun at red.  By looking at his aars one can tell that red knows what he could be doing as a defender and he is getting good advice but he is refusing to take it.   We will all find out if a half as#%ed russian defense is still enough to lay waste to the axis in 42 lol, against someone using all the tricks and is a capable player.  I wonder if red is just trying to prove a point .

[Q-Ball]

Just when you think it's too easy........

Interesting Gambit, I would declare "Fortress Stalino" and call in the Luftwaffe for air supply. Promote everyone in Stalino-grad. Should work!

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Carnage, he flatly refuses to use checkerboards and defense in depth. He considers them dishonorable. Evidently, even garrisons in rear cities violate his code of ethics. This is preposterous, but there it is, and there's no arguing with that kind of stance. For him, the fact that a purely linear defense will not work is evidence of flaws in the game design. He would rather change the game mechanics than alter his play.

WOW....[X(]....just....WOW!

Well the way Flavius says it makes the guy look like a douche - but he's quite involved in his gaming ethics, and has quite some experience with wargames in general, mentioning checkerboard as an old tactics from boardgame days. And he's not wrong. Checkerboard is hardly either an historical approach, nor a very realistic one at any rate. Although his strategy is not efficient (so far), well, it looks like a real experience to me.

In a way or another, I guess he'll have to play a little bit that way the day he won't have enough units to man the line, but we have to recognize the guy tries to give you an historical experience of the front (and even though you're being early on most sectors, that game is much closer to history than most are). Don't spare him, he doesn't ask for that, and you'd be wrong to pity him in any way.

[Flaviusx]

Fishbed, the checkerboard, whether or not you like it, isn't some kind of profound ethical issue. It is, at most, a matter of taste.

When someone starts wrapping up their preferences -- and that's all this is -- in moral garb, I'm gonna blow the raspberry every time. My bullshit detector is going off loud and clear on this.

[notenome]

Put it to you this way, the Soviet army pulling back 100 miles is far more unrealistic than any checkerboard. When, during all of WWII, was any Soviet general allowed to give up ground for any reason?
 
The checkerboard is just an abstraction, it represents a delaying tactic that was quite commonly employed. After the Uman and Kiev pockets the Soviets simply didn't have enough troops in some sectors to form lines, so divisions and detachments were used to block the Axis advance. Dozens of soviet formations were crushed trying to hold towns as the Germans would simply bypass them and/or encircle them.
 
What the Soviets did after the second battle of Kharkov was also fairly similar, a long fighting retreat/delay until they reached Stalingrad, with the ocasional mass armour counterattack.

[Fishbed]

Honestly, I am with you generally speaking: if the game allows it, then do it, especially in this scale, unless you make prior homerules. But man, whether I like it or not, it's a matter of taste, but whether you like it or not, he believes it to be a matter of pride, so it's all up to you. It's not like he complained about Carnage's playing style yet. When it will happen, then I'll switch my BS detector for good. But give the guy a chance [;)]

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: notenome

Put it to you this way, the Soviet army pulling back 100 miles is far more unrealistic than any checkerboard. When, during all of WWII, was any Soviet general allowed to give up ground for any reason?

The checkerboard is just an abstraction, it represents a delaying tactic that was quite commonly employed. After the Uman and Kiev pockets the Soviets simply didn't have enough troops in some sectors to form lines, so divisions and detachments were used to block the Axis advance. Dozens of soviet formations were crushed trying to hold towns as the Germans would simply bypass them and/or encircle them.

What the Soviets did after the second battle of Kharkov was also fairly similar, a long fighting retreat/delay until they reached Stalingrad, with the ocasional mass armour counterattack.

That's why I am saying he'll checkboard someday just because he may not have the units to do the stuff his way. But I think he made clear so far that he wasn't pulling back his forces - he's rather overcommiting them, and that gives us a pretty nice game by my book. If I ever play in PBEM, on either side, I'll do what I can to have homerules making Soviet defense work that way in the first months: no retreat and no systematic checkerboard.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: raizer

this is a good aar because red is kind of half stepping his way thru the scenario, just kinda moving stuff around, la di da,  and carnage is chomping at the bit, going full out,  pulling out all the stops. Carnage is doing great and has gotten far and I dont mean to poke fun at red.  By looking at his aars one can tell that red knows what he could be doing as a defender and he is getting good advice but he is refusing to take it.   We will all find out if a half as#%ed russian defense is still enough to lay waste to the axis in 42 lol, against someone using all the tricks and is a capable player.  I wonder if red is just trying to prove a point .

Red is making a great point I think. Even a crappy linear defense can be a pain in the arse if you don't have panzer's anywhere near the area. I does make for a more interesting game and AAR for all to see. I think Red will have a good offensive this winter.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Just when you think it's too easy........

Interesting Gambit, I would declare "Fortress Stalino" and call in the Luftwaffe for air supply. Promote everyone in Stalino-grad. Should work!

LOL.....NO [:@][:D]

After reading the above postings I have no problem playing Red and his defense. I think if he used a linebacker defense instead of linear one that would still be within his ethics as a player. Overall it does make the game fun to watch so I'm not going to make it an issue anymore.

Here is the Weekly OKH report.

[CarnageINC]

I think I have a good opportunity here for some good defensive ground before winter comes. I can't take Leningrad so I best grab what I can before the mud hits. I may continue in the snow but we'll see what the situation looks like come time. So close but to far....just like real life...LOL