Home planet invasion too easy solution

[Jim D Burns]

I think what’s needed is a third economic “player” in the economy model. Currently you have the civilians and the empire, which means far too much cash is available to use as you please which allows you to create huge fleets and militaries. There should be a system defense economy for each individual star system that has at least one colony that is treated like the civilian economy is now.

After all if you think about it, politics would/should require that a certain force level was maintained at each star system, especially during times of war. Right now players are free to strip their empires of everything and send it into their invasion/battle fleets if they wish. There needs to be a limiter in game that keeps players from doing that, and a system defense economy would work rather well in that regard.

It would build and maintain forces (ships and troops) that were strictly for use in the home system the money to build them comes from. Those forces would be under total AI control and would not be available to players, nor would they be allowed to leave their home system unless it was lost, in which case surviving defense forces would convert to player control.

If you then make it so 75% (end game techs could reduce this amount) of the income that each system currently sends to the players economy instead goes to the system defense economy, players would not then be able to afford huge fleets and militaries that can overwhelm the AI. At least not until late in the game when your empire grows very large.

Jim

Edit: Also the AI script that loads troops onto transports needs to be channged, so they only load troops if an invasion is currently plotted for their fleet.

[ASHBERY76]

A concentrated human attack is always going to be able to invade a planet no matter what.I just think increased migration to colonies will make the homeplanet less important and that is the solution.

[Howard Mitchell]

I agree with ASHBERY76.

[Carewolf]

Another way to look at it, is that homeworlds are too valuable. Colonies rarely have any real value, and this means homeworlds are singular no-brain choices for invasions. If the starting population was lower or the population migrated faster to colonies, then this head-shot tactics would lose its lure.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Carewolf

Another way to look at it, is that homeworlds are too valuable. Colonies rarely have any real value, and this means homeworlds are singular no-brain choices for invasions. If the starting population was lower or the population migrated faster to colonies, then this head-shot tactics would lose its lure.

Not all of us go for the headshot win tactic though. I don't just beat the AI empire down, I completely conquer it. I usually take all the outlying colonies first, then over-run the capital. Take the low hanging fruit first, send in a fleet that is nothing but non-troop carrying warships to force a decisive battle, then make the landing.

There are several things that need to be done as I have mentioned above.

Some other things that would help:

• Increased Migration
• AI increased military spending
• AI increased troop recruitment
• Ability for the AI to size up a players design firepower, and create similar designs to compete
• AI targeting routine improvements (IE shoot the transports first!)
• Improved planetary defense routine (IE make sure the AI builds sufficient troops to defend)
• New defensive techs available at the base tech level to help defends the homeworlds, and prevent the early game 'homeworld rush'
• Increasing the range, firepower and health of defensive structures and spaceports (IE a modifier that doubles the stats of components when on a station)
• AI routine that causes the AI to station defensive fleets of appropriate size at high value targets (so it doesn't send every ship it has on the attack)
• AI bonuses so that AI empires can stay competative vs the player (IE AI cheats if necessary)

I'm sure there are lots of other stuff, but you get the idea, there are many, many ways to go about making the AI more of a challenge to the player. All could be slider based so that normal is as the current default, and hard or very hard or insane could give the AI huge, huge bonuses...fitting all play styles.

[Tehlongone]

Migration is already pretty high in my opinion. If the value of the homeworld were to be reduced, I think it would be more elegant/realistic to simply increase the value of low populated worlds, after all from a realism point of view, a lot of revenue could be generated simply from automated industries.

As for increased defenses I think it would be a good idea to add a garrison-like unit, that is cheaper but can't be moved, meant for defensive purposes, mostly for AI, but also for the player. Personally I play with the house rule that I refrain from grabbing the homeworld first, it makes it too easy, I either wait with it for last, or destroy most of their navy and bases first. I'm always a supporter of increased difficulty though.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

A concentrated human attack is always going to be able to invade a planet no matter what.I just think increased migration to colonies will make the homeplanet less important and that is the solution.

Personally I play all my games with old empires. That gives everyone 30 "home" sized planets to start with, so it helps mitigate the issue somewhat. But I still think there needs to be some kind of limiter that prevents human players from stripping everything and leaving his own systems virtually undefended in favor of huge invasion fleets.

Jim

[Rosseau]

I just wanted to thank all the posters here. And Codeforce for taking the time to listen. I am new to DW RotS, so the least of my problems is beating a hard AI! This is like the WitP of 4x games, and I am excited about it. And it's always the dedicated forum users like you guys that wind up suggesting improvements that make the game better for everyone. So much appreciated. Please continue...

[adecoy95]

i thought the latest patch added something that caused star bases to damage troops on the ground, i haven't had a chance to test it yet, but how effective is it?

[Pipewrench]

how about an attrition penalty for enemy worlds?

your troops at home are static and carry a very low cost, militia or reserve
moving troops off friendly planets creates an attrition factor
fighting a ground campaign ramps up the cost

but the key is
a hostile world will create an attrition rate in direct comparison to population
assimilation into your empire would be timed again in relation to size of the occupation and the distance from a friendly colony that acts as a depot.

if we can force an island hopping strategy it might solve things.

 


 

 

[adecoy95]

sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

if the ai cheats, and pays no upkeep for troops, they can spam them forever on even the lowest of quality worlds.

its kinda lame, but its the simplest and probably the most effective solution. and its probably alot easier to code than alot of these suggestions.

this way, you can either bomb a world to uselessness, or try and take out its 70+ garrison

[ASHBERY76]

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

if the ai cheats, and pays no upkeep for troops, they can spam them forever on even the lowest of quality worlds.

its kinda lame, but its the simplest and probably the most effective solution. and its probably alot easier to code than alot of these suggestions.

this way, you can either bomb a world to uselessness, or try and take out its 70+ garrison

I will stop playing the game if that happended.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Shark7


I've suggested a very easy fix for that by increasing the troop module size...that alone will go a long way to alleviate the problem. Even with no other things done, that would severely limit being able to amass hordes of troops for landings.

Your example force indicates 36 troop ships divided between 3 fleets. Looking at your income and maintenance, I can't see how it would make a heck of a difference if you were forced to triple or quadruple your troop ship count. And if so - then have fun taking out an independent world early in the game. No way can you afford the maintenance on a half-dozen troop ships you'd need to take out any independent world, in the early stages of a game.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Shark7


I've suggested a very easy fix for that by increasing the troop module size...that alone will go a long way to alleviate the problem. Even with no other things done, that would severely limit being able to amass hordes of troops for landings.

Your example force indicates 36 troop ships divided between 3 fleets. Looking at your income and maintenance, I can't see how it would make a heck of a difference if you were forced to triple or quadruple your troop ship count. And if so - then have fun taking out an independent world early in the game. No way can you afford the maintenance on a half-dozen troop ships you'd need to take out any independent world, in the early stages of a game.

Keep in mind my screen shot was taken AFTER taking those homeworlds. When I started the game, I did it with a fleet of redesigned transports capable of carrying 3 troopers each. I only needed to get 12 troops. And that is the problem. It is far to easy to get troop modules on a ship when they are only size 8. The transports aren't fast, but they don't have to ben if properly escorted (meaning you clear all the defenses first).

Once I get home from work, I will show you what I use at first so you can see the cost and see that it is in fact affordable.

[Setekh]

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

if the ai cheats, and pays no upkeep for troops, they can spam them forever on even the lowest of quality worlds.

its kinda lame, but its the simplest and probably the most effective solution. and its probably alot easier to code than alot of these suggestions.

this way, you can either bomb a world to uselessness, or try and take out its 70+ garrison

I will stop playing the game if that happended.

So would I, that's a horrible solution and one I hope that never happens.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Setekh

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

if the ai cheats, and pays no upkeep for troops, they can spam them forever on even the lowest of quality worlds.

its kinda lame, but its the simplest and probably the most effective solution. and its probably alot easier to code than alot of these suggestions.

this way, you can either bomb a world to uselessness, or try and take out its 70+ garrison

I will stop playing the game if that happended.

So would I, that's a horrible solution and one I hope that never happens.

I agree with you on this. A unlimited AI troop cheat is not the solution.

Reprogramming the AI so that it keeps a force at its high population colonies that is proportional to the importance of the colony is acceptable.

[Shark7]

OK, since pictures say more than words, I will walk you through how to make a home planet seizing fleet from the start.

First picture, is the opening of the game economy, with only 1 colony, 12 troops, and the starting shipset:

As you can see, its a fairly decent economy, but nothing special.

[Shark7]

Next, the standard troopship design I have as generated by the game. In other words, opening tech, no changes.

[Shark7]

Now, my slightly modified design. Since I play a mod which gives the mega-density cell, I even removed those and put standard ones back on in their place.

This was extremely easy...drop 1 shield, add 3 troop modules.

[Shark7]

Now then, I recruited 20 new troops, unpaused the game, and built enough ships so that I end up with:

12 escort
12 frigate
12 destroyer
4 troopships
4 explorers
2 constructors

Then set the game on 4x speed and let the troops start to laod.

Here's the fleet after enought time to colonize 3 new worlds...~ 10 minutes of playtime at 4x speed.