Solved (recon problem 1.03-2)

[Reconvet]

At turn start when flying recon missions on enemy units adjacent to own ones there is no gain in detection levels, even if flying several missions (even targets in clear hexes). Only after you move a new unit into the ZoC of the recon target and fly another recon mission you get gains in detection levels as in earlier game versions.

Recon code doesn't seem to recognize own units starting the turn next to recon targets anymore.

Edit: Problem solved

[Helpless]

Afaik, it works as designed. Recon can give more that DL 4 or DL 2 (in non clear)

[Reconvet]

Beta Patch 1.03-2 installed, start new GC as Axis. Enemy Sec Rgt just across the border 1 hex NW of Brest-Litovsk in clear terrain has a DL of 6. I fly recon multiple times, it still shows dl 6.

I move 1 unit of my 3 Inf Divs just west of it 1 hex away and back. Dl of enemy unit changes to 10.

So it's the mouseover info over the recon target which doesn't update until I bring a new one of my own units next to the reconned unit.

Tried it with several enemy units adjacent to own units at turn start, in clear terrain. Same show.

[Reconvet]

Strange thing is that the mouseover info updates after flying recon over enemy airbases. The problem seems to be limited to enemy ground units.

[Redmarkus5]

Actually, that would make sense to me.

A recon flight over an enemy airbase stands a chance of identifying the number and type of aircraft based there, but a recon flight over a ground unit, even in a clear hex, can only bring back general information such as "numerous tanks" or "extensive entrenchments and artillery positions". It requires patrolling and prisoner interrogations by adjacent combat units and nearby HQs, plus SIGINT, to get more details. If a recon flight COULD bring the DL of a ground unit up above 6 THAT would worry me...

[Helpless]

Strange thing is that the mouseover info updates after flying recon over enemy airbases. The problem seems to be limited to enemy ground units.

Yes, recon for the air bases can grow to 10. Otherwise it is WAD.

[Redmarkus5]

Good design feature IMO. Quite realistic.

[Reconvet]

Then explain: I fly multiple missions on a unit next to one of mine, clear terrain. DL remains the same. I move my unit away and back in the neighbouring hex. The mouseover info changed to max.... I can reproduce this strange enemy info behaviour...

Edit: mouseover info updates the DL level to the max level of 10.

[Redmarkus5]

The move away and then back sounds like a bug. When you move back maybe the recon "check" is being repeated? The failure of the air recon to raise the DL is the feature I like.

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Actually, that would make sense to me.

A recon flight over an enemy airbase stands a chance of identifying the number and type of aircraft based there, but a recon flight over a ground unit, even in a clear hex, can only bring back general information such as "numerous tanks" or "extensive entrenchments and artillery positions". It requires patrolling and prisoner interrogations by adjacent combat units and nearby HQs, plus SIGINT, to get more details. If a recon flight COULD bring the DL of a ground unit up above 6 THAT would worry me...

I have a unit which sits next to the enemy and was patrolling next to it for one whole week....

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

The move away and then back sounds like a bug. When you move back maybe the recon "check" is being repeated? The failure of the air recon to raise the DL is the feature I like.

If it's a new feature and WAD, then why is there no mention of it in the patch notes? Nope, this definitly looks like a bug to me if a new unit entering the ZoC of the reconned target updates it's DL which should happen right after each successful recon flight.

[Redmarkus5]

I agree that it doesn't sound right. I will test it tonight when I get in.

[Helpless]

Recon is triggered by the unit movement not recon. It could be that unit movement causing too high DL, but recon works correctly.

Edit: You can try moving your unit in and out without recon and see the difference.

[Redmarkus5]

yes, thats basically what I was trying to say. So if you move the unit in and out of the hex the DL level will go up. That's not WAD is it? I sounds like we can all start moving our front line units backward and forward to max the DL...

[Helpless]

That's not WAD is it? I sounds like we can all start moving our front line units backward and forward to max the DL...

The DL check is done when you fight, move or fly recon. There is no check if this is the same unit which was standing there. Form other side you pay an MP/fatigue/attrition/etc for this action, so it is not free. I see nothing wrong in such effect, just DL deltas may look too high. But they should depend on the starting DL and unit's exp/morale.

[Redmarkus5]

No disrespect, but I don't agree. I think this is an issue requiring a fix. Comments anyone?

I would think that a unit would have a DL check limit per turn/target hex. So, for example, it can only increase the DL for hex xn yn once in each turn, plus once again for each probe or attack... Since DL is so important to combat, this would seem pretty important.

On the other hand, I guess we could agree that the MP and other costs reflect aggressive patrolling, but it would be better to have a unit mode called "Patrol" (in between Ready and Refit maybe?) for this purpose as that makes for a more realistic way to handle battle prep. So, HQ units could have a "set all to Patrol" option alongside the HQ Build Up" option. This should increase attrition levels for both sides and the effect of patrolling should be modified by the friendly and enemy unit morale, experience, etc.. That might feel more convincing.

I certainly don't want to spend half my game turn pushing units back and forward to up the DL, but if I know I can up the DL that way, surely I will try...?

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Recon is triggered by the unit movement not recon. It could be that unit movement causing too high DL, but recon works correctly.

Edit: You can try moving your unit in and out without recon and see the difference.

Ok, this works. I hadn't noticed before that ground units entering a ZoC could raise DL's by so much without air recon.

But it still feels strange that I can fly as many recon missions (over an enemy unit in clear terrain next to one of mine) as I want and see no difference in it's DL, while moving up another unit of mine maxes it out.

I know that recon flights can fail and I have no problem that I have to repeat them to get results. But getting zero results with repeated recon flights in clear terrain and one new ground patrol brings max DL? There definitly was an undocumented change, but I just can't imagine this can be WAD.

[Helpless]

There could be only one type of fix - limit for the DL increase for the adjacent move. The same as it is done with recon. Other types of tracking would be almost impossible to implement without breaking the system.

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

That's not WAD is it? I sounds like we can all start moving our front line units backward and forward to max the DL...

The DL check is done when you fight, move or fly recon. There is no check if this is the same unit which was standing there. Form other side you pay an MP/fatigue/attrition/etc for this action, so it is not free. I see nothing wrong in such effect, just DL deltas may look too high. But they should depend on the starting DL and unit's exp/morale.

And the more I think about it the less I think air recon is WAD.

Rising the DL level of an enemy ground unit by advancing one of my own into it's ZoC makes sense, that's certainly WAD. But successful recon flights SHOULD ALSO have to have SOME positive results showing immediately in a DL gain. And this air recon info update does not happen at the moment when flying recon on ground units sitting next to mine in clear terrain.

[Helpless]

But successful recon flights SHOULD ALSO have to have SOME positive results showing immediately in a DL gain. And this air recon info update does not happen at the moment when flying recon on ground units sitting next to mine in clear terrain.

Successful recon flight always have positive result. Recon is already too powerful, don't think it needs any boost. Imho, max DL 4 when you can get the type of the unit is high enough for the recon.